Jason Taylor 0:00

Welcome to today's edition of the People's Playbook Podcast. I have to tell you, I'm pretty stoked today because we have Frank Cincelli in the house today, and he is the chairman and CEO of the Wish Group. And if you want to talk about a self-made entrepreneur, Frank has spent over two decades building and scaling multiple high-growth companies across telecom, technology, marketing, and business services. Frank's companies have earned numerous awards and have been included in Profit Magazine's Hot 50 and Top 100 rankings of multiple best employer recognitions. Frank also has been recognized at Ernst ⁇ Young as entrepreneur of the year for Canada's top 40, under 40, which is a huge accomplishment, and his impact on entrepreneurship and business leadership all around. So Frank, welcome to the podcast today.

Frank Cianciulli 0:44

Well, thanks for having me, Jason. A wonderful uh introduction. I never get tired of hearing it.

Jason Taylor 0:49

Yeah, it's it's you know, I I often say that when when I do intros with uh entrepreneurs and founders like yourself, sometimes you don't realize what you've actually accomplished along the way and you think, oh yeah, I did that, right?

Frank Cianciulli 1:00

And then you said uh two decades, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this August will be 25 years.

Jason Taylor 1:05

Yeah. Well, now with AI and everything that's going on, I'm sure that we're gonna live to 120, 130 years old. So you're you're you're not you haven't even hit middle age yet, Frank. So you're okay. The best is yet to come. Just getting started. Exactly. Frank, let's get right into it. So you built a holding company that supports multiple business under one umbrella. What leadership mindset when you did this allowed you to scale people and culture across several companies all at once because there's multiple revenue streams going to that umbrella company?

Frank Cianciulli 1:34

Yeah, I I would say it wasn't by design in the beginning. It was kind of accidental, like you know, most things in life or even career. Like when I started my first venture, which was called Annunciate Conferencing, which was essentially, you know, a summer job that turned into me, you know, figuring out how to put a few bucks together and go out on my own. But then, you know, as I started to succeed and scale, and then I was approached by one of our vendors who was a friend of mine about starting another business. And then that one started to succeed. That that's where the light bulb went off in my head that, you know, building businesses are somewhat duplicated, but at least when it comes to my strengths and knowing how to put the right people in the room and surround myself with quality people and creating an environment for them to learn and succeed and learn from each other. Then we're like, okay, maybe we should try and, you know, structure this a little bit and put together, you know, a kind of a hold code of something to market beyond the actual financial implications of having a holdcoat to own the uh the shares of the private companies. And then it turned into something uh much different. And it was it's a perfect blend of autonomy for all the leaders, but at the same time, having a communal, we're not an incubator. We're, you know, it's it's sometimes they struggle to define what we are. I guess, I guess we're a private equity firm.

Jason Taylor 2:39

Yeah. You said it two times in that sense. You talked about giving the leader autonomy and you talked almost like hands off. So is that your approach? Do you actually just say, hey, you know what? Here's the investment or here's what I'd like to do with you, but over to you to run it.

Frank Cianciulli 2:51

Yeah. See, what I find is everything's, you know, every situation's a little bit different, right? If we've got someone who's never been in business for themselves before, but has a great idea, and the value we bring is that we can foster that. We can provide, you know, all the infrastructure, the back office. And, you know, ultimately one of the biggest values we offer is that we've got so much tremendous leaders in the company. And most of them, if not all of them, all started off kind of in the front line or started at the bottom, so to speak, and evolved. So if somebody new comes into that organization and needs a lot of that help from leadership or just doesn't really even know how to run a business, then we can provide that uh that support for them, or you can get someone who sees it. You know, we've got people that have either built a business and are looking for an equity partner to help take them to the next level, or you know, they're just really, really talented people, but we've got the infrastructure. We've got, you know, thousands of corporate clients between all of us and the marketing resources and the financial back office. So it all depends. So depending on the scenario, it depends how much hands-off we are or hands-on we are. But there's not a set model, you know, where you say, okay, we're gonna do this and we're gonna do that, and we're gonna hold you accountable to meetings. We're here for whatever support you want, we'll provide.

Jason Taylor 3:57

I love that. Yeah, it seems like you use your internal network to help all the other young leaders and whatnot get to where they need to go. But I'm sure that those older leaders in your company as well look to the young leaders and say, hey, you know, with all this stuff with AI and all the technology going on, I'm sure that you, the young leaders, step up to some of the older leaders as well and say, hey, you know what? You need some help.

Frank Cianciulli 4:16

We just uh completed our strategy summits in January, which is kind of like our kickoffs in January. I brought my 17-year-old son that weekend and he sat in, he sat in and uh walked us through some of the stuff he's been doing with AI and the platforms he's built, and we're like, hold on a second here. This is a business model here. We can roll this out, we can we can execute this. And he's like, What do you mean? We're like, well, we can probably make you rich, you know, if you can actually sell this thing. Um so it's interesting where you'd get, yeah, you've got guys that have a lot of skill. Even if you think of like just general sales skills, I mean, you know, if someone's in their later stages of their career and they've had success as a sales rep, they understand a lot of the principles of sales, but sales has changed so much. I mean, people don't pick up the phone anymore, they don't, you know, we don't do the whole booking appointment and go visit them. You know, it occasionally that happens. But the younger people are more aware of how you communicate or how to use social media. Absolutely. So the balance is important. So diversity, I think, is critical in all aspects, but experience and age is is important to balance out. Absolutely. How many companies do you have under your umbrella with the WISC group right now? Um I think it's around eleven. That's big. And then we've made a bunch of acquisitions amongst those. And we sometimes we keep the brand names not to confuse the clients. So I think if you include all the different brands that we operate, it's probably in the twenty, you know, a couple of dozen. That's unbelievable. So speaking of the I mean, these are not all hundred million dollar companies, but Yeah, that's okay.

Jason Taylor 5:40

That's okay. You know, sometimes they start out uh small and we we take them a long time to build, but you know what, as long as we're building. Frank, which group companies have earned multiple best player recognitions along the way? Uh what leadership behaviors had to exist first before culture awards even started showing up?

Frank Cianciulli 5:57

That's a great question. So, I mean, when I think back to when I first got started, you know, awards started pouring in about, I guess, two or three years afterwards. But I think it all a lot came from how I treated people and created the culture. It was like really what is culture? Well, you know, it's just a certain certain values as far as discipline, hard work, work ethic, learning, probably the num number one on the list, finding people that were, you know, I wouldn't say not happy where they are, but looking to get ahead and grow. And uh I always felt that, hey, you know, if you could make up for what you lack in intelligence or s or even skill with actual work, that you know, not only could you catch up, but then you know, by putting in the reps, you're just naturally going to become better. And then just as far as how to treat people, I often say that my my time at Bell Canada, the five years that I was there uh before venturing out on my own was valuable to learn how to operate in a you know corporate setting and the etiquettes involved. And obviously they had good training, uh sales training, things like that. But I also found that the way they treated people as numbers and the way they nitpicked at small things and didn't think of the big picture, not that they were a bad company. Bell Camin, I'd love to own a company as big as Bell, so I'm not gonna say they're a bad company.

Jason Taylor 7:04

Sure.

Frank Cianciulli 7:04

But in an entrepreneurial culture, you have a lot more freedom to create more of a family, a family environment and just do all the little things that mattered. And I found that some simple things like, you know, and I know a lot of these tech companies do a lot of these things now with the fuse tables and having the you know, having the espresso bars and the free food and all that stuff. But what's important there, especially the way we we did it, is not so much that it was offered, is that they actually saw the work involved to go and do it. So they felt cared for. You know, they actually saw me, you know, going coming in with the trolley from Costco, you know, we had waffles, we did the waffles.

Jason Taylor 7:37

I wouldn't say we ate healthy, but we had waffles and toast and peanut butter and bagels, you know. It's amazing because when you're an entrepreneur and you're a founder, it's easy to change culture, but you just have to look in the mirror and say, hey, culture's on me, right? And you don't you want to make work more, you want to make more money? Okay, hustle more. You know, you want to you want to make culture better? Okay, that's on you, right? As opposed to the big corporations where we can actually say, Well, that's not me. I wouldn't do that. Now it's kind of okay, well, what what are you gonna do now? Right? Yeah.

Frank Cianciulli 8:04

And you got to get the balance right because it's a competitive advantage. I mean, you know, we are starting with two or three of us when we got started, or any company usually starts off with a couple of people. And then you're trying to attract or you're trying to hire, and you're ti taking people from, you know, multinational or these large companies. I mean, the fact that you are smaller and you're nimble and and that you respect them more and there's advancement opportunities. But the counter to that is hey, you're probably gonna have to work harder here. You know, like I mean, at Bell Canada, I could wander the halls with, you know, little folders and binders in my hand and pretend I'm busy in meetings and no one would know if I do absolutely nothing for a whole year. In a small entrepreneurial company, that's not gonna wash, right?

Jason Taylor 8:41

You can't it's not and you know, I work for big corporations as well. And then when I went on my own, same thing. It's like, oh, wait a second, I used to have a person that did that for me. Now it now that's me. Until I have the capital to actually hire somebody to do that for me, right? Yeah. So it takes a while when you're going from corporate to entrepreneurship and founding your own place to actually it takes it's a it's an adjustment for sure. Yeah.

Frank Cianciulli 9:02

You know, whenever we'd start winning those awards, I mean, yeah, sure they were good for ego, but i I think it was just validation that you know, we were doing the right things for our people. And then that at the end of the day, even just a society, you know, like you got these big corporations that you're a number or publicly traded companies, and it's all about the bottom line or shareholder value, which is like, oh man, but when did this start? You know, like when did we stop practicing compassionate capitalism? You know, like everyone that keeps talking about, oh, the 50s and oh, make America great again and that in the good old days. Well, let's define what that really means. It means probably the the frontline pay versus the CEO pay was a lot less than it is today. And companies gave back, even if you look at what Henry Ford did trying to create a utopian society, like they gave back to the communities that helped them grow. And these corporations that are always looking for tax loopholes and they're they're trying to just strip away all the money from their employees and pay them the least possible or offshore. So what to buy half a billion dollar yachts? Yeah. And then I don't know. So it just I always felt like you want to share, you want to share with the people in the community that helped you uh succeed.

Jason Taylor 10:03

Well, being Italian, you'll know this phrase very well. And uh one of my Italian clients always says it, you give what you get and you get what you give. Right? So in the Italian culture, when you you give more, you get more. And when you hoard, people hoard from you as well. So it's obvious that you run your companies thinking about that. And giving isn't necessarily monetary, giving's also advice, giving's mind time. Time, yeah. You know, giving some of yourself to make sure that things happen along the way. Great transition into my next question. So you're known as someone who nurtures ideas and connects people together. What is your personal filter for deciding which entrepreneurs or leaders are worth investing your time in? Because there's only a certain amount of time you have in a day.

Frank Cianciulli 10:44

Yeah. Well, the first and foremost is ego and making sure that you know it's in check. Yeah. This is the biggest travesty in my 25 years in business is witnessing how many people have squandered not only fortunes, not only the money, but like the potential of creating something beautiful uh over their ego and not being coachable. You know, so being coachable, having your ego in check, and um, you know, and then obviously having passion and ambition for what you do. But you know, the coachable thing is very important in the ego thing. Because like, you know, oftentimes, and this is sometimes a concern when you invest in someone who's, let's say, older than me or or over the years. So when I'd hire someone older than me, you'd feel a little bit of jealousy there. So it wouldn't be submissive and saying, okay, you can be stronger than me, you can have more wisdom than me. But if you're talking about building a business and you're operating a business that's much smaller than the one I'd built in a fraction of the time, and now you've decided to partner with me or work with me. Yeah. What's wrong with being submissive in that aspect? If I go see a lawyer, because I I have a file that or an issue to deal with, I'm not sitting there telling him how to do his job. For me to sit there and listen and take it as advice, I'm not weaker. I'm just trying to be coachable and have my ego in check so that I can solve the problem and get the outcome that I want. So whenever it hasn't worked out, which fortunately hasn't been too often, but if whenever there's been a situation where the partnership didn't work out, wasn't coachable, and usually that's because of an ego issue.

Jason Taylor 12:12

Yeah, they haven't left their ego out the door, right? To come in, be humble. And it's amazing what happens when a leader's humble, but more importantly, when a leader actually shows humility. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay, it's okay to say I don't know.

Frank Cianciulli 12:26

Well, if I partner with, I don't know, I have a couple of ad agencies. Okay, they're more the traditional firm. So if all of a sudden I realize, oh my God, I got this young guy or this young group of uh guys, they got this dynamite, fast-growing social media agency, they've figured out you know how to tap into that market and I and I seek out a partnership with them. Well, what's the point if I get in the room and don't listen to a word they say about social media and tell them everything they're doing is wrong? Meanwhile, I've got a business that's not doing well that I realize needs to change. Like it just makes no sense to me. Yeah. And I'm I'm a nice guy. I don't cram anything down anybody's throat. I don't, you know, I don't tell them the wrong. That's very hard to correct. Um, unfortunately. It's hard to go back on that, right?

Jason Taylor 13:02

Yeah.

Frank Cianciulli 13:02

Yeah, because it there it's pride, I guess maybe. I I don't know. So definitely people that I feel like they really just like, you know, what do I need to? The best words I like hearing, and this is what I say to people when I'm like, like, what do I need to do next? Yeah. What's the next step? Just tell me what to do. Yeah. And I don't understand it either because I, you know, I've read so many self-help books. Just say, listen, decide where you want to be in life and then go seek someone else that's accomplished it, and then just shut up and listen, especially if they're going to give you the time. And why would you do that? If I want to add muscle mass and I want to get in shape, and there's a guy at the gym and he's built and he's a trainer and he's willing to help me. Yeah. Well, why would I resist and question everything he's saying? I've got no muscles and he's got lots.

Jason Taylor 13:42

Exactly. Exactly. Listen and learn. I love it. So, Frank, you know, there are many people you deal with, and let's specifically talk about founders for a second, right? So a lot of founders are great at starting the company, building the company, but they struggle to become leaders. How do you actually help them build to be a better leader? And when you look at teams today, what leadership capability are you most proud of developing in others? Well, I would say like resiliency, right?

Frank Cianciulli 14:10

Like I love that. You gotta have true grit, you know, to make it. And there's a fine line between, you know, never giving up and, you know, where it doesn't make sense. But for the most part, the burn the bridges mentality, or it's like we're going to succeed. The question is how quickly? And believing that and installing that is important. Where if someone's got that self-doubt constantly, the team feels it. You know, like the greatest generals of all time, you know, the whole burn the bridges thing, right? Like we're gonna, we're gonna win. And uh I think that's I'm not saying that can't be developed, because it can, but usually you're kind of born with that, or not born, but you it develops over time, you know. That's why I see that in people that play team sports or they're in competitive environments. So besides resiliency, the other thing that's very important that I like to see in the leadership team, and the biggest compliment I ever received is when someone says, Frank, there's two different types of, let's say, business leaders or entrepreneurs. So the ones, let's say they're both like flowers, a bouquet of flowers. There's some where it's just like that lone rose and they shine, you know, the the celebrity entrepreneur. And then there's the entrepreneurs where it's like they're a bouquet of flowers where all the leaders are showcased. And uh, you know, I prefer the latter. Where I, you know, early in my career, you know, the i I wouldn't even call it ego. It was just more of a wonderful feeling to get recognition. Not so much for me, but like, for example, when when I won that the Ontario Entrepreneur of the Year thing with Ernst and Young, my my parents were there. I could swear that was my mom's best night of her life. Most in some ways, because she was an entrepreneur. I feel even more than the birth met children. Do you know, do you know what I mean? Like it was just, I don't know that so obviously that feels really great. But okay, after that was done, it's like, I want that now. I wanted to feel that way for my leaders. So I'd like to see them be that way. You know, the selfish entrepreneur that he's just focusing on making the money and taking Dibbies out. Hopefully I instill, and I like to see that in my leaders where they do the same. They want to share the wealth after they get some of their accolades and they're good. You know, once you, once you're good, okay, let's not get caught in the money trap. Let's not get caught uh in always wanting, you know, more and more and more. So I always try and also coach on because I it's listen, it's it's it's something that I battle constantly, um, is how to just be content at some point, right? Like, why are we really doing this? And you should be doing this not just to make money as well, right? That this is a calling. The biggest thing for me is once I I don't know how I say made it, but you know, where you realize, okay, I'm good. This thing's gonna work. Well, was the best thing is realizing that I actually found something I'm good at and I found my calling in life. I'm like, you know what? I think I'm always gonna want to be a part of businesses. I don't know if I'm gonna wanna be operating them day in, day out and working 12 hour days, but being involved in them because that living, breathing thing and there's so much good that comes out when you build a good organization.

Jason Taylor 16:59

So a key thing that you said there was grit. And it's it's a common theme that every leader I interview on the podcast or talk to or work with, they always say grit. And well, your profile, based on me knowing that profile, you have a ton of grit. Do you look for a more proactive leader that may not have it 100% figured out along the way, maybe 80% there and figures out the 20% along the way while they do it? Or are you the kind of person that says, hey, this business before we go forward, I want everything figured out before we move? Oh no, no.

Frank Cianciulli 17:31

Yeah. No, I I'm 80% is even too much. No, I I was all about let's just go and figure it out later because I prefer ignorance on fire over knowledge on ice all day long. Yeah. Uh in any employee person and my biggest pet peeve in business is in action, gotta figure it out. All the businesses that succeed, man, it's mainly that. Just get it going, get some sales, just make something happen. Yeah. Oh, we don't want to mess up the opportunity. Okay. I'm sure there's certain technologies or businesses where you can't go out there half-cocked because then you might just really destroy your credibility. But most businesses, most, especially service businesses, just go and we'll figure it out. And we'll figure it out after. So that knowledge on ice component, you can't work with that. See, if I've got someone who's just like, Frank, what do I need to do next? I'm ready to go. I can work that. I can shape it. Plus, they're going to make mistakes as they go. So they'll self-correct. They don't even need me to tell them what to do. Versus if someone just doesn't want to do the work, I got to be Anthony Robbins every day. I got to try and motivate them. No, don't get me wrong. We definitely motivate. We definitely try and motivate. But you can't rely on that. And even the the education, if it's not backed up by action, you can't apply it. I can sit here and watch all the cooking shows and deck building shows I want, but unless I'm actually in the backyard trying to build the deck or in the kitchen trying to put together a recipe, I won't be able to apply the knowledge. Otherwise, by watching TV, I should be able to be a gourmet chef. Sure. Yeah. So it's the same in business, you know, like you just got to go out there and try and make moves and make mistakes.

Jason Taylor 19:06

One of the great leaders I worked with once said to me two words, attitude and activity. Yep. And he just said you control. Yeah. He said, get up every day and you you choose if you're going to have a good day or not. Right. If you get up and you say today's going to be bad, it probably will be, right? As opposed to saying, hey, you know what? Let's get at it and create some activity and move, right?

Frank Cianciulli 19:25

As opposed to waiting for someone to come to you, right? At the end of the day, if you're facing a challenge or any any, I always tell people, listen, at the end of the day, let's just control what we can control, which you can control your action, your attitude. You get fired up, even if fearful of your life right now, your financial life. You're in a recession or the company's hemorrhaging, whatever. Okay, dwelling on it ain't gonna help. Let's get excited, even if you're petrified. Let's do something.

Jason Taylor 19:48

Let's pick up the phone. Let's let's get some meetings going. Let's let's sell something. I love it. You have so many different companies in your portfolio. How do you actually create that shared culture with the companies being so different along the way?

Frank Cianciulli 20:02

Yeah, actually, that's one of the most challenging parts. Not so much, you know, because they're different industries. I mean, there's some kind of real different ones, but it's the type of people that the industry attracts. You have a team of coders and a tech company that can be totally different than say a team of recruiters in a staffing business, and it's totally different than you know our CPG business, you know, where we're out there dealing with uh grocery stores or what have you. So, but you know, at the end of the day, though, the shared vision and the values and the power of the leveraging is what kind of keeps it all together.

Jason Taylor 20:31

Yeah, it makes it makes so so much sense. You talk often about the bootstrap path rather than relying on the venture capital. I think that's what you meant earlier when you were talking about grit and persistency. Am I correct in that? Yeah. Okay. Okay, good. Yeah, because I I just think that's probably why, based on your profile, where where you are as opposed to where others have been along the way. As your companies grew, because there's always a moment. What was the moment that you realized your leadership style needed to evolve for the organization to keep scaling? Because you probably started with one and then, you know, you did well, you sold it, and then you started investing. What was that moment where you think said, I think I got to change things a little bit personally just to make sure I could keep this thing on the rails and keep going?

Frank Cianciulli 21:13

Yeah, two components there. I think actually operating a business, I learned pretty quickly because fortunately the you know, the first business uh did scale pretty quick as far as you know, revenues and people. So, you know, um by 10th employer, certainly by certainly at 50, you know, your behavior has to change versus when you were smaller, 100. It is one of the big things I always liked. I would I like to meet everyone before they actually join the company, whether it was part of the interview process or once they were picked. At 100, that became really, really challenging, especially with travel. So you have to adjust, you have to learn to trust your leaders, you know, a lot more. You can't I can't micromanage every step of the way, you know, with hundred plus employees that you can with 10 or 20. And then the same thing would happen when it became more of a leading leaders thing. Um, you know, so now okay, you've got a president of a company and And you're really just really just dealing with that person. Uh, I'm not going into the organization. You know, besides when I'm sitting in the management meeting or a kickoff or a monthly meeting. But even then, you don't want to step on their toes. So you've got to learn that's the biggest challenge. Learning how to step back. It might be similar to, you know, a professional athlete that played on a team and was a star player and then turned into being a coach. It's like you often hear them saying, I just want to get on the ice. I just want to get, you know, put me in. I want to just go out there and but you can't. You got to kind of try and communicate what to do from your experience. And that's a totally different skill.

Jason Taylor 22:32

For sure it is. For sure it is. How long do you give a leader before you you make a call if they're going to make it or not? And what I mean by that is you've seen so many leaders with all the companies that you have, and new leaders are joining all the time. What behavior or mindset tells you very quickly whether they're going to succeed and thrive in your environment? Well, you know what?

Frank Cianciulli 22:54

You usually can tell right away. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's like, uh-oh, okay, what do we do? You know, do we get to a certain level and just realize, hey, this one might not grow continuously? You know, are we in a situation where this person really has some some skill, but maybe not as the, you know, as a CEO, maybe they're the best suited for another spot. And that that's the biggest challenge, quite frankly, when it comes to a people business and when you you've got to kind of handle it. Because oftentimes if you get that person that's really a control freak and you know doesn't want to let go of certain things, I'm not saying it's not possible. We're all capable of changing, but man, that's such a big uphill battle. And then they're the real bottleneck. And it's like, how do you communicate that? Or the other opposite. Sometimes you have people that want to delegate everything, and it's like, yeah, but here's the problem. You're a startup company, you've got five, six people, sales are flat. I don't know. Those companies, a CEO or whoever's the top, got to go out there and maybe be the rainmaker, at least for a while.

Jason Taylor 23:48

Yeah.

Frank Cianciulli 23:48

You know, like you got to lead the charge. You can you can't be a a small army and sitting there hiding, you know, hiding, giving orders in the control room. You know, like you haven't earned that. You haven't earned that yet. If it was that easy, then we'd all everybody would build a business. The biggest thing, the funniest thing I ever hear when people talk or entrepreneurs talk, like, oh, you just gotta hire better people than you just gotta hire someone uh to drive your sales. Hire someone to drive your sales. Driving the sales is the key to wealth and building businesses. If you could just go hire that, yeah, everybody would own private companies and hire someone to build your sales team. 100%. You know how hard that is? Yeah. To build a sales engine?

Jason Taylor 24:23

Yeah. I go around the world to do it. I would build 20 a day if they were that easy. It's not that easy. It's one of the hardest things to actually do, right? And you're right. So many leaders actually think all you have to do is hire people better than yourself. Well, okay, but are is somebody just as passionate about you uh about this business? Uh did they have the idea in the first place to start this business? Do they understand all the intricacies of the business, et cetera, et cetera? You got it.

Frank Cianciulli 24:45

And what even if it's a marketing engine, oh, we just throw a bunch of money at, you know, uh ads or social. Really? Okay. Yeah. That's simple? So every BC, every startup would succeed then based on that?

Jason Taylor 24:57

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. When you look at the leaders within your organization, after decades of seeing leaders and building companies, what leadership habit do you believe separates long-term builders from short-term opportunists?

Frank Cianciulli 25:10

Oh, I yeah, I think it's the ones that it's it becomes their life purpose as well. It's not really for the money. Not to say that I haven't worked with people that want to get in and kind of, you know, use it as a means to potentially exit or make some money and then just, you know, live. Sure, you know, do what they want. That doesn't mean that can't work. Yeah. But in my experience, it's usually the people that this is what they want to do. And, you know, like a lot of my partners of like myself, like we're good. You know, we can be golfing and fishing every day, and a lot of them do that. Yeah. But they can't be out of the game. Like they they need the juice. And for the hopefully for the right reasons, not just to make money, money, money, money and buy yachts and all that kind of stuff. I I just find that's not really Yeah. That's not authentic. I think your people can feel that. And then how do you do that? How do you drive in a work with Lamborghinis and you're ever they know you're on yachts, and yeah, i I I don't know how to build that kind of culture unless you're already a larger company, which we're not. We're you know, we've we have some six, uh, some nine-figure businesses, but you know, but we don't have multi-billion dollar, multinational publicly traded companies, right? It's a little bit different there. I mean, if Elon Musk is on a rocket ship, fine as people get it. But you know, you're 20 to 50 employees and you're out there grinding and you know, have a good, nice, profitable business. But you know, if it's all money motivated, I don't know how you get a dedicated team. I don't know how you get people to to fight and you know, really want to take care of your customers. There has to be a common It's like when I play on my men's league ice hockey team. We play as if we're playing for the Stanley Cup. Yeah. I know it's absurd. Otherwise, just exercise. Yeah, exercise is nice too. But I mean, we want to compete. That's part of the fun. We want to compete.

Jason Taylor 26:44

It's fun. I say to my boys all the time, I say compete, compete. Yeah. And there's a scoreboard for a reason. Right. So there's a scoreboard, not because they think it's going to be a zero-zero game, because hey, because at the end of the day, have fun, you know, but compete, right? Don't go, yeah, you don't just go for a little casual skate. Get in there and try to try to play the game, right? Play the game. Frag, I got two more questions for you because you've been more than generous with your time today. And I I just want to finish this up with two questions. So if if somebody actually left the company, Wish Group, after several years, what kind of leader would you actually hope they have become because they have worked with you?

Frank Cianciulli 27:19

Well, first and foremost, I always say, and I've always said this from day one, 25 years ago, you know, when I talked to the team, is that the only way I'm really happy that you you'd leave Wish is if you know to start your own business or get in business for yourself, or at least lead somewhere that you know you can be very passionate about and you can kind of pay it forward. And, you know, I always want maybe it's ego, maybe it's just, you know, but I I always like thinking that if someone, you know, 10 or 20 years down the road became very successful and was a great leader somewhere else, that they look back at their time at Wish and say, you know, that that was one of the main reasons why, you know, I found success. I mean, we're most proud of the people that had no entrepreneurial aspirations, but being being part of this culture, all of a sudden was like, you know, I can be in business myself. I can do this. So I'd love to see them have that same spirit of paying it forward, of sharing, you know, their success with their people as well, and and creating other leaders. Like that's the whole model, right? Is kind of paying it forward and duplicating ourselves. Because, you know, I believe people got to work for the most part, people gotta work for a living, right? So and you're gonna spend a lot of time doing it. So if you're gonna do it, why not be passionate about it? Why not put everything you got into it? Why not create something special in your life? And it's so wonderful when you see people that you know, let's say get together and meet through the business and get married or become best friends. That's so satisfying. These are like obviously you want to make a profit, but making a profit is just to survive. Yeah. But there's so many other benefits. And so in my case, the more people that move on to become leaders and create employment and create other powerful messages, it's a butterfly effect, I guess, or ripple effect.

Jason Taylor 28:56

Yeah. There's uh very few great leaders, and and you you you're falling into that category just based on your answers. There's many bad leaders that are selfish. And I have to tell you, I I hope you never retire because uh yeah, and I know know your profile. I don't think you will retire ever. Just have a strong belief that you're not.

Frank Cianciulli 29:14

Most days it doesn't feel like work.

Jason Taylor 29:16

Yeah, exactly. And and I call that better work, better world, meaning it doesn't feel like work to you, right? It basically feels like, hey, this is this is pretty cool what I'm doing and how my life's my life's ending up. Last question before I let you get on your way. If you had to give one piece of advice to a young leader or a young entrepreneur starting their own business, what would your one piece of advice be based on going through all the peaks and valleys along the way in your life?

Frank Cianciulli 29:37

Well, certainly, you know, trying to find a mentor if someone is willing to uh you know share their experiences and help you walk through the minefield. You know, I was fortunate enough when I got started, even though he was actually a year younger, but he was uh three years into his business. Uh Tony Lacavero was my first partner, and he's turned into a wonderful entrepreneur, uh, a great success story. But the benefit I had is that because he had walked through the minefield, I was able to avoid uh some issues. Now, human nature, someone can tell you, hey, don't touch that hot stove, but you still gotta touch it just to learn the lesson. But but for the most part, that's obviously very helpful. And you know, going back to the being resilient, right? Like once you decide to do it, just do it, just go all in. It'll it'll happen for you. You'll figure it out. Even if the one particular industry or business you decided to start doesn't work out, you can pivot to something else at some point. Worst case, you can go back to finding uh employment for a while and then get back at it.

Jason Taylor 30:28

Yeah. When I left the corporate world, Frank, my leader at the time said to me, I, you know, I had to give my notice and I was in a I was in a big job. He said, How are you feeling right now? This was my last day. And he said, How are you feeling? My actual answer to him was scared chills. And he said, and and he actually said to me, Good, he said, I have a I have a saying, if you're not scared, you're not living. So he said, It's good to be a little scared. It looked good to have that anxiety in your stomach in your chest. So you actually, that's the fuel that's gonna burn you. And uh, I'll tell you, it was the best piece of advice because I just kept going and and I'm loving life because of it, right?

Frank Cianciulli 31:00

It's never comfortable, but I I hear that often. I hear that even with performers, right? You got some of the best performers, the musicians, the comedians, and when they're asked that, they're like, No, I'm nervous before every show. Every time, yeah. And they've done it a thousand times. Learning to embrace it the same way you embrace a roller coaster. Every time I get on, I hate going on rides, uh, but I still do them. And then, you know, that anxiety and that fear, and it's just okay, we're not really gonna die. Your odds are we're not gonna die. So learn, learn to love it to some extent. Uh a great clutch. And getting out of your comfort zone is is where growth is too, right? Like I tell people the double-edged sword when you find some success and you want to keep working, the good days are um are amazing, they're still exciting, but the bad days are tricky because you're like, what do I need to do this for? Like, why I know you're getting to some legal battle or oh my god, I gotta fire someone today. Who the heck wants us fire someone, right? Like after you've been in business for 25 years and you could be retired. But at the same time, that's where the growth happens. And I think we're happiest when we're growing.

Jason Taylor 31:56

Yeah, I agree, my friend. With that, Frank, thank you for your time today. You were very, very generous with it. I know you have so many companies to kind of check in on and whatnot. So thanks for giving us some of your time today. And uh, I look forward just to seeing what what you're gonna buy next, what you're gonna invest in next, and uh have many cool conversations along the way. If you love that session and that conversation as much as I did, would love to have you join our People Playbook community in the link below.