Jason Taylor 0:00

Welcome to this edition of the People's Playbook podcast. I have Chris Caldwell in the studio today. And I got to tell you, Chris and I have had many conversations about leadership and people. Chris is the CEO of the Community National Bank in Vermont, a beautiful place in the world that I actually want to get to sooner rather than later. And he spent over two decades building and leading teams to become high performing across commercial banking. What I really like when I talk to Chris is just his ideas and his his concept of how do we shape a people-first culture mindset that's rooted in the community. And I love it when I'm talking to a banker and he's talking about just people and he's talking about community as well. So Chris is known for developing leaders and strengthening local economies and proving that banking can be ultimately a relationship-based business. So, Chris, with that, welcome to the pod. Thanks. Glad to be with you, Jason. Thanks for the time today. Yeah, absolutely. Chris, I'm going to get right into this. So you've spent your entire career in community banking, which is pretty phenomenal. Based on all those years and kind of doing what you do, what's one leadership belief that you you've held on to that's never changed, even as the industry has along the way?

Christopher Caldwell 1:15

Yeah, great question. You know, I think you're right. The industry has developed and changed a lot in the over three decades that I've been involved in it. But you know, one of the things that I I think hasn't changed and shouldn't change is the belief that nobody in the organization is better than anybody else. If the sidewalk has snow on it and we get lots of snow up here in Vermont, right? But if the sidewalk has snow on it, grab a shovel and clean it off. It doesn't matter who's doing it. You know, if there's a piece of trash on the ground, pick it up, stop, pick it up, throw it away. I mean, it's just a function of having some pride in who we are and what we're about, but also understanding that nobody is too good to do those kinds of things. And when you have that kind of a mindset, then everybody understands that, you know, there's this big picture of which I'm a part of, and I get to play a role in that and I get to celebrate and embrace being part of that. But also that it's good to have a wide variety of skills and diversity within the organization. So at the end of the day, 30 years ago, today, 30 years from now, I think that still matters.

Jason Taylor 2:19

And you you know why you think it still matters? Because it actually does. What you've done with your bank, oh, and you know, banking's a big industry. You've really been able to hone in on how do you make that a community feel? And I think what you've done with your team is you've basically said, hey, we're part of this community, so let's make sure that we we add to the community and we don't take away from the community and we help people out in our community. When you are all about serving both your clients and the communities, how do you actually embed that mindset into your team's day-to-day behavior when somebody walks into the bank? Like, how do you actually get that? So it's just embedded in them and it comes almost as instinct.

Christopher Caldwell 2:57

Yeah, you know, for the last couple of years for me, Jason, one of the things that keeps coming back is helping people understand what I call their why. Help them understand why it is that what they do matters, why it matters to us as an organization, but also why it is so important for us to be more than just a place where somebody opens an account, gets a loan. This organization, by giving back to the community, makes the community better, which makes us better, which makes the community better. And you get this positive cycle that happens. You end up with people understanding that serving our community is beneficial to the bank, and it's the right thing to do. And when we help them understand why that's the case, then I think that really begins to we hit our stride. We do what we're supposed to do to make our community better. And that's part of who we are. I mean, we have shareholders, we have clients, but we also have communities that we're beholden to and need to support.

Jason Taylor 3:59

It seems like you're a big fan of common sense.

Christopher Caldwell 4:01

I try to be.

Jason Taylor 4:04

Sometimes, you know, in our conversations too, Chris, it uh what I love about your personality is you don't want to make things difficult. You want to say, hey, why don't we keep this simple and do some common sense along the way? And it's amazing, it's amazing what can happen when we just kind of think a little differently sometimes, right?

Christopher Caldwell 4:20

The whole common sense thing and simple. I mean, you know, I tell people when you get to know me, you understand that I'm kind of a boring and dull person. I just like good common sense stuff, and and there's no reason to overcomplicate it. Yeah. Just take care of people and do the right things. It's it's amazing how that works.

Jason Taylor 4:38

You actually use when I talk to you, it's very evident that you don't take yourself very seriously, but you take what you do very seriously. And and I love that trait about you because you know you don't come across as unapproachable. You don't come across as I'm the CEO of this company. And what you come across is, hey, I'm a teammate, and let's work together and and come up with the right decision along the way. Thank you.

Christopher Caldwell 5:01

I appreciate that. I I try.

Jason Taylor 5:03

Yeah. Cool. Well, keep on doing it, my friend, because it it resonates with you. Chris, so let's talk about that. So you've worked in this industry for quite some time. I know you're not 29. You may feel 29. I know you're not 29 anymore. And you've had multiple, multiple roles throughout the industry before becoming actually the CEO, the the, you know, the top job, and you climbed a ladder to get there. What's something that you can take and you learned about leadership at every one of those levels that still shapes how you lead today?

Christopher Caldwell 5:34

Yeah. So I worked for an organization that used the predictive index tool. And I was asked to do three-day intensive on predictive index. Going through that three-day process really helped me cement in my brain and really in my core as to people. I kept saying people are different, and we need to embrace the difference, we need to embrace the diversity. But when you go through three days of that and you start really analyzing my colleague, you begin to understand them at a very different level. And you begin to understand that somebody can be really, really good at details, and somebody else is probably not as good at the detail job. And how do you put people together to lift everybody up through that whole process? So I had a gentleman that used to work for me, just one of the great people in the world. And what I realized was that my style clashed with his style. And he needed time to process things and he needed time to think through the questions that he wanted to ask. I, on the other hand, don't need a lot of that time. And it wasn't fair of me to treat him as I wanted to be treated, because again, you don't need to give me a lot of time to think through some of those questions. For him, a day or two is perfectly fine for him to do that. And so that really just cemented for me a whole different way of looking at things and thinking about how I can help somebody find better purpose in their jobs and in and their careers.

Jason Taylor 7:10

Yeah. What you're talking about there is everybody needs to be led and managed in a different way.

Christopher Caldwell 7:16

Yeah.

Jason Taylor 7:17

And we can still deliver the exact same message to people, but make it resonate in a different way on how we communicate that message based on who you are. Right. And when we do that, I'm a big proponent in self-aware leadership, right? Knowing, and you just talked about that, but based on that answer, you're saying, hey, I became very self-aware on who I was, but knowing that, hey, the way I like things isn't always the way my team likes things. And that's okay. We're allowed to be different. It's okay that, you know, they say, I don't like that. And when we do that, we can actually manage them differently. One of my favorite sayings is managing or leading everybody the same way is like giving everybody the same size of shoe. It doesn't make sense, right? And what resonates with you might not resonate with me, right? So uh very, very again, self-aware in what you said. So being a people first kind of thought process leader, relationships are actually key to you. I just want to flip that a bit because sometimes when we're talking about culture and making sure everybody's happy and driving to the agenda, how do you build a culture where people not just genuinely care, but they also perform? So, how do you how do you kind of get that performance out of them based on caring about them so much as people?

Christopher Caldwell 8:30

So, you know, I think when you think about that relationship type drive and care, you know, one of the things I keep coming back to, and I I I said it earlier, and I'll probably say it again at some point today, but helping people understand why they do what we're asking them to do, as opposed to, you know, just go do it. But why do you do it? And why should you care? Why should you care about a customer? Yes, it's customer service, and yes, it's the right thing to do, but why? You know, because ultimately when you do that, you help somebody at a deeper level than you would if you just simply were checking off boxes to say, okay, this is what I do, this is how I check boxes. And so we if you're making assumptions that a customer understands what you're telling them, but you don't understand exactly why you're even telling them what you're what you're saying, then you you basically are just working on giving them a deposit account or giving them a loan product. When you begin to understand and you begin to start digging in and you begin to see this as a relationship, not just product pushing, but a true relationship, it really becomes fun because then all of a sudden the customer goes, Oh, Jason gets me. Jason understands me at a different level than anybody's understood me before at a bank. And man, this this means a lot to me. Oh my gosh. Jason really cares about me. And guess what happens? Jason tells five other people, I had this great experience with Chris down at the bank because he gets me. And that's the part where it just becomes a really nice, self-fulfilling prophecy.

Jason Taylor 10:15

I love that, Chris, because what you're talking about there is culture's contagious, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it could go both ways, right? So it could go really, really good or it could go really, really bad along the way. And when we have those cultural champions talking about kind of what's working in this organization in the right way based on the leadership, it becomes contagious. And you would, you know, we attract what we attract, right? And it it's amazing what happens when we get that going. Chris, you stepped into the CEO role. And sometimes we, you know, sometimes we're kind of we're careful what we wish for, and we we we get into that role and we're like, okay, there's some things that are kind of looking at me right now in the in the face and kind of right in front of me. When you stepped into the actual CEO role, what was the first cultural or leadership shift that you knew you had to make in the organization?

Christopher Caldwell 11:09

Yeah, I think the real shift had to be that the organization has been really, really good and really strong for a long time, well before I ever walked in the door. But sometimes we succeeded in spite of ourselves, not because of ourselves, if that makes any sense. We succeeded, but we didn't succeed on a strategic level. We just we succeeded. And so helping the team really what I wanted to do, and I'm still trying to do, and I'll never be satisfied that I've done it enough, is helping all of our team understand what our strategic plan is and where we're going and what that vision looks like. Because again, I think if you can help everybody understand that, everybody begins to understand how they play a part in this. This is not just Chris. This is not just the senior leadership team of our bank. It is everybody being a part of something much bigger than themselves. And so my real shift was I want to make sure that every single employee of this organization begins to see how they play a part in what we're trying to do in a much bigger global, holistic kind of way. It's a shift. But I think when you do that, work becomes more meaningful. The joy in what you do becomes more palpable. And all of a sudden, people begin to go, ooh, I I want to do this. This, I see where we're headed. I want to be part of this.

Jason Taylor 12:38

It's amazing when you provide that clarity and you show people, hey, you know, here's your role and here's why your role is important. And it's just like any football, baseball, hockey team, whatever. You know, you may not be the top person on that team, like based on, you know, being visual with that team and whatnot, but at the same time, you have a role and your role counts. And if we all play our role properly, we become a really high-achieving team as opposed to just kind of mailing it in.

Christopher Caldwell 13:08

I mean, think about a holder on a point after attempt or a field goal on a football team, right? The guy's job is to hold the football just right so somebody can kick it. Yeah. Not sexy, not, you know, a lot of stardom there, but you screw that up.

Jason Taylor 13:24

It it's it's meaningful. 100%. What a great analogy. That's a role that, you know, it doesn't come with a lot of, you know, we're not talking about it all the time, but man, we will talk about it if he gets it wrong. Yeah. We're sure we'll talk about it. The next day on Monday morning when we're playing armchair quarterback, we're gonna talk about that for sure.

Christopher Caldwell 13:43

Yeah, the kicker, the kicker gets the accolades for making a 60-yard field goal. The Holder didn't get any accolades for holding the football in that 60-yard field goal. Yeah.

Jason Taylor 13:52

So Yeah, and there's a way to do it for sure. I'm a big believer in leadership without titles. So, and I know you are based on our conversations, and you know, from you said it many times. I don't, I, I don't care what role the person's in. I want them to feel part of the team you said. I actually want them to know that they contribute. And the big thing that you've that's resonated is you've said numerous times in our conversations, you really care. In my opinion, working with leaders around the world, Chris, you can't fake if you care or not. If you're faking that you care or not, it doesn't come across as authentic. It doesn't come across properly. Right. So when you're looking at your organization at the bank and you're looking to develop your people, how do you develop leaders inside that organization, not just employees? So how do you get them to strive for that leadership? And, you know, whatever role they're in, how do you cultivate that? Accountability.

Christopher Caldwell 14:46

I think there are memes all over the place anymore. And, you know, there's sort of this what's a manager versus a leader kind of meme. But at the end of the day, I think leaders have to understand the unique nature of everybody on their team. They need to understand where those people are and how to help them and find ways in which they can provide meaningful help to the work that they do. I used this phrase earlier. Managers check boxes. Leaders actually are there to meet people where they are at that time and to try to make sure that they help give them a path where they want to go within the job that they do. But it all comes back to accountability. I mean, you know, I think if you have an organization where people are accountable to each other, then that starts to drive that whole mentality of it's not just me that I'm letting down, it's this whole team that I'm letting down. And so how do I, how do I keep from doing that? And I think that's part of that whole process.

Jason Taylor 15:46

Absolutely. If you're looking at the banking world now from where it was when you started, it is more digital and transactional than it's ever been, than it ever was back when you and I were young, right? How do you keep your team grounded in that human connection when everything is just kind of press the button, go to this app, touch this, transfer over here? How do you how do you make sure you keep that human connection?

Christopher Caldwell 16:12

Well, that's that's that's probably the one of the largest challenges that I wrestle with on a regular basis now, Jason, because in 2020, during the pandemic, what we said was, here's your phone, here's how you can do banking, and you never have to come in. As a matter of fact, we'd prefer you not come in because we don't want you infecting us or us infecting you. So for everybody's safety, we're gonna have you not come into the building. And then all of a sudden, we figured out how to deal with the virus, and now we're saying, hey, we'd really like for you to come back in. And people are going, but you told me I didn't need to. So, you know, I think one of the great things about a community bank is that we have an opportunity to talk to our customers every day in the community as we're interacting with our community. So we see them at a restaurant or we see them at the grocery store, we see them at the Little Eater softball game, whatever it happens to be. And we get to start having those conversations again. It goes back to making sure that we understand that our customers don't know everything that we can do to help them. And we have an opportunity to actually provide them with assistance in their in their financial lives. There's a guy by the name of Michael LeBoeuf who wrote an article about how to keep customers in for life. And he basically boils it down to two things. People either buy something because they have an unmet need or an unmet want. And here's this opportunity for us to, again, getting back to that conversation about building a relationship with people. If we really build the relationship right, we can discover what it that unmet need or unmet want is. And instead of selling something to somebody, what we're doing is we're providing a service and a solution to a problem that they've got. And I contend that you cannot do that in a complete digital world. You have to do that in a human connection world. Now, you can connect with people digitally, virtually, but you also, I think, need to be able to connect with people face to face and to help them understand what those needs and wants are, understand what those needs and wants are so that you can help them solve their problems.

Jason Taylor 18:23

Yeah. Excellent, excellent discussion. Chris, you touched on it during change. We just talked about COVID and whatnot. So culture is often tested during change or times of uncertainty. What's a moment where your team's culture was really put to the test?

Christopher Caldwell 18:40

Yeah. So um the that moment was when I became CEO. And all of a sudden, this team had to deal with this guy who had not grown up in Vermont, had not grown up in this bank. My two previous predecessors had spent their whole careers with this organization. And so here's this guy that walks in. I'd been here for a couple of years before in a different role, but here I am now as the CEO. And, you know, can I truly be trusted? Do I really truly have the bank's best interest at heart, or is there some self-serving thing for this in Chris? Do I even really understand what it means to be a Vermonter? Because again, I didn't even grow up in the state of Vermont. And so those stressors began to sort of put a stress on the bank's culture. And, you know, my leadership style is different than my either of the two previous predecessors. And so ultimately what that boiled down to was I could not just assume because I was CEO that people were gonna just follow me. I had to help them understand that yes, indeed, this gets back to that accountability thing we talked about. Yes, indeed, I'm here because I care most about Community National Bank and where we're headed as an organization and how we can support our communities and our customers to live better lives than where they are today. And I'm passionate about this place. But again, I can't just say I'm passionate about this place. I have to demonstrate it. And so, you know, that means getting involved in community activities and being part of the community in a way besides just showing up to work. When the team begins to understand that this is this is really about improving upon already an awesome organization, and my goal is to make us even better than where we where we were yesterday, then that begins to set in. And that was, you know, that was a real, a little bit of a culture shift for this group. But we're doing some really cool things around a mission that was built well before I got here. We're doing some really cool things around community service, again, that was already here before. We're just doing it in some new ways that I think are giving some energy to that and helping people really begin to buy into the fact that, yeah, this is a great place and we're just making it even better.

Jason Taylor 21:01

I love that. You said a key word there that a lot of leaders say, and I wasn't surprised to hear from you as well, is you said when I first came in as CEO, I had to build their trust. Did you build that trust by just taking little small steps along the way? Or how did you because trust comes differently to people based on who they are, right?

Christopher Caldwell 21:20

Yeah, I mean, uh trust is I want to know, talk to me, tell me what's going on.

Jason Taylor 21:26

Communicate.

Christopher Caldwell 21:26

Yeah, it's trite, but you know, give me the good, the bad, and the ugly. Okay. Now that you've told me a little bit about that, how do we fix it? Not how do I fix it, how you know, but how do we fix it? What is it that we can do to help fix this? My analogy, again, my people probably are sick and tired of hearing this, but there's this tiny little pebble in your shoe that's really, really annoying. What is that pebble in your shoe? And is there a way that we can solve that so that you don't have that annoying thing happen anymore? Sometimes we can, sometimes we can't, but let's talk. Talk about it and let's see if there isn't a way we can fix it. And you start fixing things and you start doing what you said you were gonna do repeatedly, and pretty soon people begin to trust.

Jason Taylor 22:10

Yeah, it's amazing when we do what we said we were gonna do, they actually say, wait a second, he or she came through on that. Maybe I'm gonna give them a little bit of a a chance as opposed to just putting up blocks, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Good stuff. Chris, I have two more questions. You've been very generous with your time. I know you're a busy gentleman. I have a couple more questions for you, and then I'm gonna let you get back to your day. But uh, one of those questions is when someone does leave the organization and people have opportunities or they move or they want to try something different and they leave organizations all the time. What do you hope they say about the kind of leader you were and the culture you built when they leave your organization?

Christopher Caldwell 22:49

The first thing I want them to say is, I'm really sad that I'm having to do this, but I'm leaving dot, dot, dot, whatever the case happens to be. I would love nothing more than for this to be a really tough decision for them to leave, but also a really great opportunity for them to go somewhere. I'd like for them to say that this organization helped them begin to see themselves in a way that they'd never seen themselves before, that they're not just a cog and some sort of wheel, but that they played a much bigger part in building this big picture that we call Community National Bank. I'd love for them to say that that they saw me as a leader, not just a manager, but a leader, and that a leader who was willing to have honest and sometimes difficult conversations, but somebody that did so with empathy and caring. I'd like for them to say that I held myself and our team accountable. And I think probably the thing that I'd love most about them to say about me is that I'd love for them to say that I was an I was a great mentor for them and that I saw something in them that helped them build self-confidence and that they really began to feel differently about themselves because of how they were treated here.

Jason Taylor 24:03

Wow. I love that answer, Chris. It's it ties in perfectly to my last question as well. So there are a lot of young people that listen to the podcast, and you know, I'm a big believer in we need better leaders in the world. I think that where there are many great leaders, there are even more leaders that probably need a lot of work. We're probably all in that category a bit that we need some work, obviously. But if you were looking at the younger generation and somebody was starting their career, and you could say, hey, I'm hey, kid, I'm gonna give you one piece of advice based on, you know, climbing the ladder and or entrepreneurship or whatnot, just a piece of leadership advice to help them along their way and their path, what would that piece of advice be?

Christopher Caldwell 24:41

Yeah, I think I would tell somebody who's just starting out in their career to challenge themselves, to push themselves. And when I say challenge, I mean, you know, push. I mean find find opportunities that maybe are outside your comfort zone a little bit. And then go find that person who you can attach yourself to that can also be that can help challenge and help push. And between the two of you, you get to where you are. I mean, mentors are critical. And when you can find a mentor who can help get just nudge you, then you really begin to make strides. And and I wouldn't be where I am today without mentors. They're just too many people to even mention, but they're great people to help me push.

Jason Taylor 25:22

Yeah, I agree, Chris. And I I actually I'll actually say when you find that mentor and that mentor helps you along the way, make sure when you get that success along the way, phone that person up and say, hey, you were part of this.

Christopher Caldwell 25:35

Absolutely. It's a great conversation. Yeah, it's a blast to have that conversation to go. Jason, yeah, dude, you helped me get to this point. And I cannot, I cannot begin to thank you enough for doing this. And I just want you to know you did this for me.

Jason Taylor 25:48

Yeah, it's it's unbelievable what can happen. Chris, with that, I want to thank you for your time today. You exude and ooze just kind of great leadership and kind of getting people to the next level, leadership without titles, explaining their why, showing them why they need to be part of this and helping them grow. And I know you're a very busy individual, so I appreciate the time that you uh took with us today. If you love that session and that conversation as much as I did, would love to have you join our People Playbook community in the link below.