Jason Taylor 0:00

Welcome to this edition of the People's Playbook Podcast. Today, my guest is Steven Emerson. I'm pretty excited about this. I've had some conversations with Steven, and I've had some conversations in circles that of people that we know about Steven and just his thought on people, culture, and leadership. He's the president and CEO of Emerson Packaging and has run the family-owned business for more than three decades currently and has seen substantial growth. And if you talk to Steven, he'll say that's because of his people, his team, and the culture that they all believe in. With that, Steven, I'd like to welcome you to the show. Thank you very much, Jason. Pleasure to be here. Yeah, excited to have you. Steven, you've you've actually led Emerson now for more than 30 years. And, you know, as you and I have talked about, it probably seems like just a blink of an eye, but it's been it's been over three decades. What leadership belief do you have that's remained unchanged through every stage of the growth you've experienced in those three decades?

Stephen Emmerson 0:59

So my disclaimer, Jason, as I do these types of interviews is uh I like to tell people that at my age, you know, I've got an opinion on everything, but that doesn't mean I'm right. So as we kind of walk through these things, I'll just I'll you know, I'll share what I know or what I think I know and absolutely what I believe, and you know, kind of get things started on your first question here. And you kind of touched on it in my introduction, you know, I just really believe that you just get things done through people. Yeah. What I've seen in businesses, companies struggling to grow, is usually the owner or the president's inability to delegate. And, you know, I call it the fingertip philosophy where their business will be only as big as what they believe they can touch. And then once it starts to kind of get outside that, they get uncomfortable, they retract back, their business will actually shrink for a while and then grow back to what, again, what they believe they can kind of keep their hands on. So that's a big philosophy of mine. And, you know, I think I you know I figured that out fairly early. You know, I tell people my company, I'm either the best delegator or the laziest person here. Um I'll let you decide which one you think it is because my philosophy is simple. And I and I run a little bit bigger company than some, but my philosophy has always been anybody but me, if somebody else can do it, even if they don't do it or I won't think they'll do it as well, it's just one less thing that I'm not trying to deal with on a daily basis. So that's a big part of my business philosophy. The second thing I tell people is, and it doesn't really matter if you're a big business or a small business, I think this philosophy kind of holds the same, is you want people that really compliment you. Like you don't need more of the same, whatever your gifts are, your strengths are. Yes. Try to find people that don't have those, that they have other gifts and other strengths. And if you're a small company or just starting out, that's the hardest one to hire, but it's probably the most important. Yeah. What do you mean it's the hardest one to hire?

Jason Taylor 2:45

Talk to me about that. Why is it hard to hire that?

Stephen Emmerson 2:48

Well, if you're a small organization, a lot of times people think that they can't afford to have someone at a level that they really want them to. And I say, well, you don't have to have five. Just pick one. But don't pick one. If you're really good in sales, don't hire another good salesperson. Hire someone who's more an operations guy or an administrative person or a finance person, or vice versa. You know, if your gifts are more in the admin and finance space, hire a good salesperson or a good sales manager. So you want someone to compliment you, not to mimic you. And again, I think that's relevant in every size of business, but if you're a smaller company, it's really, really important. So pick the best you can. That'd be my thought on that one. I like your comment on fingertip. How did you word it fingertip? Fingertip philosophy or fingertip management.

Jason Taylor 3:30

It's it's it's I love that. I've never heard that. I love that. Did it take you a while to trust others to do that? Because lots of times when we're young leaders, we, you're right, we want to hold on to everything. Did you learn pretty early on to say, hey, you know what, I'm gonna let go?

Stephen Emmerson 3:44

I think so. I think that, you know, there's probably something inside me that wants to do more and more and more. And and you're either gonna work, you know, 60, 80, 100 hours a week, or you start to learn to delegate. So if you want any quality of life outside your business, unless you just want to do 100 hours a week in your business, which is your, you know, as an owner, it's your prerogative. But if you're if you want to try and have a family and and spend some time with them, you you have to learn to delegate.

Jason Taylor 4:08

Yeah.

Stephen Emmerson 4:08

You either figure that out the hard way or the easy way. And but I would say probably fairly early, you know, I walked into an established business. It wasn't that big, but it was established and we had chains of command and managers and VPs in place already that my grandfather and my father had put in place before I even got here.

Jason Taylor 4:25

Yeah. Let's speak about that for a second. So business as a whole is lots of times there's lots of complexity. But when we bring in the added word family business, it actually carries a lot of complexity at times and different dynamics. What's the hardest leadership lesson family-run companies need to learn to scale successfully?

Stephen Emmerson 4:46

Well, I have a deep passion for family businesses, and I actually talk about this quite a bit. So you'll probably find with most of my answers, they're never really short.

Jason Taylor 4:56

Yeah, I like that.

Stephen Emmerson 4:57

But I think that I think the biggest challenges for businesses is learning the difference, especially a longer term, more established, and if it's a bigger company, is learning the difference between being a good leader and manager versus being a good owner. Some of the largest family-owned businesses that I deal with, many of them, you know, your listeners would recognize, very few of them are actually managing the business anymore, but they've learned how to be really good owners. And if you're trying to raise your children up, you need to figure out, you know, is there a place for the kids in my business? And that kind of leads into the second part of this is that family businesses by their nature, and again, my opinion, is that they're a bit of a trap. And they're a trap for just about everybody involved. And if you look at what the mother wants, you know, I call it the mama bear, all she really cares about are my bear cubs nearby. Am I going to see the kids and then maybe my grandkids? Because if you don't hire them, they're going to go work somewhere else and they may end up living somewhere so far away we never see our children. So there's a little pressure there from mom. I think the pressure from dad is different and maybe even more severity, quite honestly, because it's this whole pride thing is, you know, that's my son or that's my daughter, and you know, they have exactly what it takes to run this company just like I do. And and I challenge a lot of business owners on this topic. And I usually start by asking them, you run the family business or you started the business, do you have any siblings? And they always say, Oh, yeah, I got two sisters and a brother or or whatever. And I say, Well, how many of your siblings can do what you can do? How many of them can run your business the way you do or better? And they after they're laughing, they say, None of them. And I say, Well, if that's the case, same parents, same family gene pool. I say, What if you think your kids have what it takes to do your job? And I get a very long pause, right? Because they don't want to look through that lens. So my assumption, I have two sons, and my assumption has always been since they were very little, is that neither one of them has what it takes. Now I want to give them the opportunity potentially to prove me wrong, but that will be on them. It won't be me telling them you have what it takes. It will be them showing me that they actually do and showing others around them. So I think that that's a a big part of you know being in the family business. And I'm not sure again if I'm answering your question or not, but that's yeah, no, you you've answered it perfectly.

Jason Taylor 7:14

Yeah, I think that you're you're basically saying right leader, right chair to scale the business properly. And that might not always be your family. It might be somebody else, but you have to make a decision as a family on who that's going to be, right?

Stephen Emmerson 7:26

Absolutely. Yeah.

Jason Taylor 7:27

Yeah. Very, very interesting how you you I love how you took that spin of it of asking other family-run businesses, hey, could your brother or sister do this as well? Because it's funny, we look at our siblings a little differently than we look at our kids, right? We're a little more honest and direct about our siblings, but our kids for some reason we we do that, you know what? Yeah, we can we can try to get them to do everything as sometimes helicopter parents, right? I love it.

Stephen Emmerson 7:52

Yeah, and I think it I think the last thing I was saying on is, you know, it's it's a bit unfair to the kids because for the children, it it can be a very easy path. It shouldn't be, but it can be. And if the kids are of the illusion, well, it that's a it's a hard world out there, but this is a lot safer place for me, they can fall into that trap as well. So you really kind of have the mom, the dad, and the kids. So I don't want to forget the children. And it's not easy working in a family business. You know, it comes with its own set of stressors that are that are sometimes very unfair to the family members. So I, you know, we'll talk probably a little bit more about this as the interview goes on about there's things that you can do to help you know minimize the risk of those things in the family business. Yeah, let's talk about that right now. What are some of those things? Well, one of the questions you're talking about is like, what are what are we doing? And I think that a mechanism that we put in place when we went to the third generation was we implemented a voting board of directors. Now, every business doesn't like to do this, but for us, the board plays a really key role in helping to not just bring good governance to the business, but also to manage the family. Yeah. So we have more non-family members on our board than family members that that legally can outvote the family. We're they're directors. We pay them to be here. They have the uh the authority of the business and they're responsible for the outcomes of their decisions. The chair of the board cannot be a family member, at least not as long as I'm CEO. So we spend a lot of time really early on in our third generation as we as we tried to get together as owners, and and I'm the only one that actually works in the business now. And how do we want to measure that and manage that? So the board has been a huge help in that area because it's not a brother telling his brother or sister like this is the way it's got to be done. Sure. It's outside advisors that we pay to be here to give us advice to help guide us in our decisions. So that's been a a really, really important factor, I think, in our business. And again, whether it's a board of advisors or a board of directors, I would encourage really any business of any size to start getting people outside of your normal sphere to start helping you and encouraging you and to, you know, just as a good sounding board, if nothing else. And then I think the second thing that that helps is um is not just defining the board, but also the roles that you want on your board. So we're governed very much like a publicly traded company, which I know is very unique. Everyone says, I can't believe you do that, Stephen. So we have an HR committee, an audit committee, a pension committee, all non-family members on these committees to help really make sure we're governing the business well. And then I think the final thing I would say on that is that the shareholders, the family members need to understand that if you put the family in front of the business and it fails, you got no one to blame but yourself. That means is the business has to be healthy. And if the business is healthy, the family is healthy. I can tell you from personal experience that when the business is healthy and people feel like their investment is increasing or they're getting a dividend, they're a lot happier than when we're not.

Jason Taylor 10:45

Yeah. Did you meet any friction when you said, hey, I'd like the chairman of our board not to be a family member? Did that cause friction?

Stephen Emmerson 10:52

No, because I also countered it with the the board can fire the CEO. My ceilings are very much okay with that rule. Um that, by the way, was actually my idea. I mean, I I preach a lot about accountability. Yeah. I tell people, and everyone who works for me knows that the board can fire me if I don't do a good job or a good enough job, because you can't preach accountability if you have none. So I'm accountable to my board and my shareholders, and I think that allows me to kind of you know spill that down through the business. Wow.

Jason Taylor 11:18

I have to tell you, I've I've interviewed many people on the pod before. I've never heard of a family business doing that, and I I think it's courageous and I think it's different, and I think that's that's one of the reasons Emerson is so successful because you you are taking a completely different lens on family business. And you said something there, Stephen, that resonated with me. If the business isn't healthy, we don't have a business. Right. Right? So, and we have only ourselves to blame. So, literally, while you're answering that question, I was thinking, wow, this is this is actually brilliant the way he's he structured this. So, well done. Let's shift into some of your cultural stuff now because we had a great conversation on it. I'd love to talk about what's one cultural value that Emerson packaging has that you refuse to compromise on even when growth created pressure. What is one of those cultural items that you have that you just say, I'm not compromising on that? This is one of our staples, this is one of our pillars.

Stephen Emmerson 12:14

I thought a lot about this because maybe when we were talking last time, I mentioned that we actually have four kind of pillars of our of our business. And I call them, you know, they are our cultural pillars. Maybe I should start by saying more specifically that they're my core values and I hold them very dearly. I wrote them, you know, I didn't hire a marketing firm to come in and say, well, Stephen, this sounds really good.

Jason Taylor 12:33

Yeah. There wasn't AI back then either.

Stephen Emmerson 12:35

Oh, no. So and I don't say this braggingly, but I just what I believe quite vigorously is that whatever the CEO or the owner really holds dear, those are the things that should permeate through the business. Culture to me is a top-down issue. It's not a bottom-up. And we could talk more what I would consider bottom-up things, but certainly the top-down, because when I came into the business, I took the place of a non-family president who was running the business, and I quickly figured out that we were not as culturally aligned the more I thought about it as perhaps we should have been. And that's not to be derogatory in any way. I I learned a lot from him and I loved him dearly, to quite honest with you. He's a real mentor. But we were different. Uh, so these cultural things, they really impact your business, whether you believe they are or not. So you should document them. Mine are on the back of my business card. So if I hand you a card, my core values are written on it, so you know exactly what you're getting into. But they're on everybody's business cards. You know, anyone who hands out an Emerson Paxton card has my core values on the back of them. And when I go through hiring processes, you know, I only hire from where I'm sitting, managers and executives. So I talk a lot about core values and I and I tell people, you don't have to have the same core values as me, but your core values come can't be in conflict with mine. Because if they are, you're going to be really uncomfortable when you come here. So don't come.

Jason Taylor 13:53

Yeah.

Stephen Emmerson 13:53

So we talk a lot about that through the hiring process, and I really try to get some alignment. And quite honest with you, I've not hired people because I didn't feel like there was a good fit. So I have four, but if I was to pick one that I absolutely cannot live without, it's the fourth one. And it's we strive to do the right thing, even if it costs us. And there's some things that you just have to do in business, whether that's writing a check or helping somebody that you really don't want to help, but you know it's the right thing to do. And that really kind of guides, I would if I looked at them, I would say it even guides the other three, very much so. Can we go over the other three? So the first one is we enhance our lives by helping others succeed.

Jason Taylor 14:32

Love it.

Stephen Emmerson 14:32

The second one is we care about each other, our clients, and our community. The third one is we are responsible for the outcome of our actions. And the fourth one is I mentioned, we strive to do the right thing, even if it costs us.

Jason Taylor 14:45

All people related, all driving culture, and all when in sync will deliver positive growth. And as a you know, added value to that, it'll actually grow our bottom line in the proper way and create what I like to call better work, better world, which means people actually like going to work because it doesn't feel like work. And it feels like a second family or a group that they like to, you know, hang out with or whatever, but they get a job done at the same time and it the time goes really fast.

Stephen Emmerson 15:15

Well, I would tell your listeners too, if you think I get this right or we get this right every day of the week, we don't. I mean, we still stumble and we fall and we pick ourselves back up. And but I'll tell you one of the one of the things that I've really enjoyed the most over the years is when my staff start giving me examples of Stephen, we did the right thing. And it costs us, but we still did the right thing. Or this is an example of us caring about our community or our clients. And my favorite one when it comes from staffers is, you know, Stephen, we did something for another employee and it really enhanced their lives. When they start using your language and their actions, you know you've got some real serious alignment with your managers and your staff. So I I really I'm I'm thrilled when I hear them. And I don't think it's in a manipulative way, I just think that they're they're so used to me or their or the executives using that language that they start to see how it applies in their life. And when they see it and they can see it being applied, it's a real win-win.

Jason Taylor 16:07

Absolutely. And if it sounds just by you saying that it's becoming real, it's become really sticky in your organization. And when something becomes sticky and hard to remove, that's absolute utopia. We love that. Steven, what do most leaders often misunderstand about building loyalty within teams?

Stephen Emmerson 16:25

Yeah, you make me think on these questions, Jason, but I and I I'll I'll say this, but don't be too upset, upset by say the thing that I notice is that if you think your loyalty is being being reciprocated, I think that that might be a mistake. Okay. That doesn't mean that employees can't be very, very loyal. What I always tell people is stop paying them, see how loyal they are. So they're here for a job, and best case scenario, they're here for a career, and you'll figure that out over time. But what I would say is that if you can figure out what really fulfills people and gives them a sense of accomplishment, you'll create the stickiness that you want in your business. And that's not easy to do because that's a real individual by individual strategy, not a, you know, a bigger marketing strategy or operational plan. It's really about the individual because what excites you may be different than what excites me. And uh, good leaders, good managers, they figure that out. You know, I have two sons and I've been telling them since they were old enough to hear it. I said, the one thing you can be absolutely sure of is I'm going to treat you differently because you're different. Yeah. You know, to do for one that the other one is expecting is I don't think is right. And I told my managers the same thing, I'll treat you all differently because you're different people. And by the way, you can ask them. Just ask them, what is it that you really like about your job? Or what if you're looking around this business, like what do you see that would be of interest to you and can you create that opportunity for them? And we spent a lot of time at Emerson trying to figure out, you know, how do we how do we give people what we know they will be good at, and that creates a stickiness. And then I think the last thing I would say on that is you have to be okay if you can't do it. You may try, or just because somebody wants something doesn't mean they're capable of doing the job. And I and I unfortunately have shot myself in the foot a couple times where I knew that the person was going to fail, but I gave them the opportunity anyway. And unfortunately it didn't work out in I think in at least two instances I can think of. I had to terminate them. But they asked for it. Yeah. And against my own better judgment, I I agreed to it. So but sometimes you have to be okay to let them go to find what they need elsewhere. And and I've had several many instances over the years where they've gone, they've learned something, they've tried something, and then they come back. I I love it when they come back because they come back more energized, more aligned, and they only come back because they because they like what they had here. You know, my one of my VP one of my VPs right now, he resigned a few years back, and one of the other VPs was quite upset because he worked for him. And I said, Listen, I said, Don't worry about it. I said, I got a feeling that he's gonna be back someday. And I was right, two years later, one of my executives retired, he applied for the job, and he got it. And um, sometimes you gotta let people go to grow and mature somewhere else. And I just I just love telling that story because he's the perfect example of we didn't have the position or an opportunity for him at the time. He wanted to grow, he went somewhere else, but ended up coming back. And he came back, to quite honest with you, in my opinion, as a better leader and a better manager.

Jason Taylor 19:19

I love that. You know what else I like what you said, Steven, was you said yeah, I you can't manage or lead everybody the same way, and you have to coach people differently because people are different. And my thought on that is that's a truly self-aware leader. Because when I go around the world talking about self-awareness and leadership and just cultural and people and right person, right role, one of the things I say is, you know, gone are the days where you say, well, if you're not on the bus, you're not working for this company, you know, um, like it or leave it and whatnot. People are different. People have choice. And leading everybody the same way is like giving everybody the same size shoe. It doesn't make sense, right? Like I'm a size 11, you're a size 12. Like it, why would I give you the same size shoe? So how can I actually deliver the message the way it needs to be delivered, making sure it's aligned with the one of the four values that I have in my company, and at the same time tweak it in a way so it resonates with everybody as opposed to just one or two people. Because the way I speak to you might be totally different than the way I speak to Jimmy or Sally in your company. I might have to tweak it a bit just so it resonates with them and it sticks with them as well.

Stephen Emmerson 20:27

Yep.

Jason Taylor 20:27

Couldn't say it better. Yeah, I love it. I love it. When you look at emerging leaders, and I know you're part of some groups, and I know you lead some uh, you know, focus groups along the way. When you look at emergency, sorry, emergency, emerging leaders, what qualities tell you someone is ready for greater responsibility?

Stephen Emmerson 20:46

This is a great question, I think, because I've well I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. And I and I think it you've you've forced me to kind of help solidify what I've probably intuitively been doing. So I kind of bucked into two categories. One is is is what is what are the primary roles of a leader? And then what are the skills or the requirements for them to be able to do those things? So I came up with four, and I'll give you all four of them. So one, I've been saying it for 20 years. The primary, the number one responsibility of a leader, in my opinion, is to bring clarity.

unknown 21:18

Okay.

Stephen Emmerson 21:18

We're here, we're going there. Here's the rules at Emerson, don't do that, or do this. Here's your job function, here's what I expect of you in the workforce, or here's what I expect of you in your role. This is all about bringing clarity to people. And if you can bring a lot of clarity and take away the ambiguity, you will have better, more productive, happier workers. I vigorously believe that. So, what's the skill that's required to be able to bring clarity? Probably pretty self explanatory. You have to be a good communicator. So when I talk about who who's going to be a good leader or a good manager, I say, are you able to articulate whatever it is you're trying to communicate in an effective way? So the second thing I say that managers are responsible for, and by the way, if you work for me for 15 minutes, you'll hear me say the first couple is to manage risk or reduce risk. So One of our jobs as the leaders of the executives of the business is how do we make decisions but minimize the risk involved? So, what's the skill requirement for that? I think it's good judgment. And, you know, years ago I had a young manager, he wanted to quit on me because he in his in his position says, I, Stephen, I can't do the job. I'm not doing the job. And I said, Listen, I said, you're new to the role. I said, I didn't give you this job because I thought you could do everything 100% on day one. I gave you this job because I think you have good judgment. Wow. And I'm happy to say 20, 20 years later, he's still with me and still exercising good judgment. I was just about to ask. I was gonna say, is he still there? He is, but he's a great guy. But I he handed me, actually handed me his resume and I handed it back to him and said, I'm not accepting your resume because you haven't, you haven't earned the you earned the right into the chair, you have not earned the right out of the chair. So we had good chat about that. And I the third thing is I think that man that leaders are responsible for is developing in the plans or the goals of the organization. So we come up with the vision of where we want to go. And I think the skill that's required for that is creativity. So I look for my leaders to show some creativity, get outside the box and think as they like to say, or you know, we're doing it one way, how do we do it a different way? Or, you know, the kiss of death for me is, well, Stephen, that's the way we've always done it. I think nothing makes me cringe more in business than hearing someone saying.

Jason Taylor 23:14

Yeah, I just cringed when you said that. This is like, oh, I hate it when people say that. Yeah. Me too.

Stephen Emmerson 23:18

So I need them to be creative. And then the fourth thing I think leaders are responsible for is to manage or implement change in the business. So, what skill set do I require or look for in that? And and the best word I could think of is perseverance. One of my heroes throughout history was Winston Churchill. And I think that he represented that perseverance characteristic more than any leader I've ever seen. And I just, if you listen to him and read about him and listen to some of his speeches, it was all about perseverance. Like we will not quit. We will never ever give up. I was asked one time by a couple people, says, Stephen, how do you know when it's time to quit? And it was a really odd moment for me because I'm sitting here thinking, what are you talking about? And I actually said, I said, I'm not sure I understand your question. Well, you know, you've had enough, you can't win, you throw in the towel. So when do you know it's time to do that? And again, I'm just sitting here like, why am I not understanding this question? I finally blurted out, never. I said, You never quit. Ever. And I tell people, you know, you're whatever your strengths are as a leader, if you flip that coin over, they're also your greatest weakness. Sure. So as a fighter, someone who does not know how to throw in the towel, I have to caution myself, Stephen, are you fighting just for the sake of fighting or are you fighting because you think you can win?

Jason Taylor 24:32

Yeah.

Stephen Emmerson 24:32

Anyway, those are the things I look for in leaders and potential managers. I hope that answers your question.

Jason Taylor 24:38

I love how you actually brought Churchill into it. I'm a I'm a big Churchill fan as well. And one of his things was his unre I forget exactly how he said it, but he said there has to be an unrelentless obsession with winning and succeeding. And I believe that's the word he used, obsession with it, right? But he did it in a very persistent, never give up way. And not only was he able to do that, but he was able to create belief around him to say, hey, yeah, we all need to go do that, right? And I agree with you wholeheartedly, Stephen. He what a phenomenal, phenomenal leader.

Stephen Emmerson 25:10

Yeah, and doing it under the most difficult of times. I mean, you know, we think business is tough, and it is, but being at war and understanding the decisions you're making are truly life and death. And I, you know, I pray I never have to make those type of decisions, but he was quite the guy. Yeah, phenomenal.

Jason Taylor 25:24

If you're actually looking back at your career and, you know, you make decisions every single day and probably lots of them. What do you think was the leadership mistake that taught you the most about people? So in one of those decisions along the way through the decades, what leadership mistake have you made that taught you the most about people?

Stephen Emmerson 25:44

Well, I made lots of mistakes, Jason. I think one of the things that I learned that was a really hard lesson is that hope is not a strategy. I do tell people that prayer is, but hope is not a strategy. You know, I hope things get better, I hope their attitudes change. I, you know, I hope the customer gives me an order. It's like that's not a strategy. And if you want to be successful in business, the goal is to implement the strategy. You know, I tell people all the time, strategy is easy, implementation is hard. And if you can figure out where you want to get to, and you know, when I'm working with my team, it's like if we want to get to here, what are the milestones that we have to clear to get to there? Signs that we know we're gaining ground, we're we're winning, we're being more successful. You know, I had one of my DPs years ago, he says, Stephen, you know, manufacturing is like football. It's three yards in a mouthful of dirt. And I love that analogy for those sports fans who play football or play sports, you know, you don't always score, but you keep trying. So I tell people, you know, figure out what your goal is, figure out those milestones and how you can manage them, and then resource your people accordingly. And then lastly is hold them to account.

Jason Taylor 26:50

Yeah.

Stephen Emmerson 26:50

I had a really cool opportunity years ago to spend a few days with Peter Schutz, and you don't know that name. Peter Schutz was the former CEO of Horsch. Yeah. And he's the guy that turned it around. He had a management philosophy that uh that I think is quite interesting. He says, Stephen, he said, when you're with your management team, your executive team, they said you need to develop your plan. Plan in a democracy. But when it comes times to implement that plan, you implement like a dictator.

Jason Taylor 27:18

Love it. Yeah, so get buy-in, right? Get buy-in, make sure we're all aligned, build the trust, make sure it's communicated. But then once we agree on that plan, head down and go.

Stephen Emmerson 27:31

Well, I I tell my my team, I said, guys, I said, you know, this is our plan, but these specific pieces of it are yours. And whatever you need, you need to tell me that or tell the team that we're gonna put some stakes in the ground, you put them where you think is a reasonable place to put them, but once they're in the ground, you can't pull them up.

Jason Taylor 27:47

Love it. Where do you go for your leadership kind of uh mentorship and advice? Because the CEO is a lonely job, and uh, you know, you have to kind of seek out sometimes you can talk to your team, but sometimes you have to shield your team from the thing. So where do you go, Stephen, to just say, hey, you know what? I need to talk things through or get some advice right now.

Stephen Emmerson 28:06

Well, I think I've got a few depositories that I constantly seem to be pulling from. Probably my wife would be the first one. She's a wonderful sounding board. Yep. Doesn't really has never really worked in business, but she is a genius when it comes to people. So I whenever I have a people issue, she was probably the first place I do it. And I'm just thinking, I don't want to do that, honey, that's too hard. But she's a great, great people person. I, you know, her her understanding of human instinct and the way people think and act and behave is is quite genius. More to an operational standpoint, you know, I've been really blessed. I've had some wonderful board members, I've had some great chairs that have really helped, you know, been sounding boards for me. And and then the last thing I would say, or two more things I would say, one is I was a member of an executive team for a very long time, or executive group. And if you can get into an executive group, YPO or tech, or there's a number of them out there, that you feel comfortable enough really exposing yourself and your challenges. Because I tell people, once you get to a certain level, whether that's executive or CEO, the issues are almost always the same. So I was fortunate enough to join a group when I first became CEO. Everyone thinks they know what they're going to do till they sit in the chair and then they realize they don't know what they're doing. And you've got to take it till you make it, is what I tell them. There's just really good business principles that you can learn from people who've been there and done that. And you can participate in a group that you, again, you can you have to be honest with them. You have to be able to say, here's the challenges I'm facing. But then you get some really good advice from people who've either gone through it or gone through it, and they can help you out. And then the last thing I would say is my executive team. They're not my buddies. I pay them to be here and I tell them quite candidly, I say, you know, I'm not paying you for my opinion, I'm paying you for your opinion. So don't just regurgitate what I've said if you disagree with me. It's your responsibility to this organization and to me as your boss to give me your honest opinion. And I've always encouraged that as long as I can remember. Yep. And uh, I would be lying if I said they always told me exactly what they were thinking, but by and large, I've cultivated a team that trusts me enough to say, Stephen, respectfully, I disagree, and here's what I think. And that is invaluable in an organization. If you've got a bunch of yes men around you, it's a tough, tough road.

Jason Taylor 30:15

You've built that up though. That's called, I call that your trust bank account. So your trust bank account comes with deposits and withdrawals, and hopefully there's more deposits in that trust bank account that, you know, when you ask a question like that of your executive team to say, hey, give me the real goods here, and you know, it might sting a bit. I might not love love hearing it, but give me the real goods, that's that's your trust bank account being abundantly full with trust.

Stephen Emmerson 30:41

If I can give a tactical uh piece of advice on that one, if it's a really tough issue for me, and I don't do this to be manipulative, I'm just genuinely curious, is I'll go see each one of my executives one-on-one and talk about the issue.

Jason Taylor 30:53

Yeah.

Stephen Emmerson 30:53

Get the opinion first. And if they want to think more about it, that's fine. But I'll say, you know, what should gut tell you that we should be doing? And then we'll get together as a group and I'll talk about it again. And what that does, I think it does a couple things. They don't, they don't feel like they gotta just tell me what I want to hear. They give me their opinion in probably a little safer place because it's just the two of us. And then when they get together, they get to kind of say, well, you know, do we have a meeting of the minds or is there still differences of opinion? Because they've already expressed theirs to me. They can't backtrack away from it. So again, I don't I don't do it to kind of paint them into a corner. I do it so they have the freedom to really share what's on their minds. And I've also done that with board members, quite honest with you. Again, not to be manipulative, but to just like, let's just have a talk. It's just the two of us. What do you think? And I I find that the harder the issue or the more challenging the issue, the more I probably implemented that strategy.

Jason Taylor 31:42

I love that. Steven, I know you're uh a very busy individual, so I just have one more question for you. Because you've been absolutely incredibly generous with your time today. My last question for you would be when your leadership journey is eventually written about, if it was written about and there was a book about it, what would you hope that your employees and family members would say mattered most about you?

Stephen Emmerson 32:03

Well, if I understand your question correctly, it's just like, what do I want to be remembered for? That's right. That's right. And I think if I could sum it up in one sentence is he did what he said he would do.

Jason Taylor 32:14

Beautiful. Beautiful. He did what he said he was gonna do. I love that. And that ties back to your clarity, your head down diligence once the plan has been bought into, let's go, let's go do it and let's make sure that we succeed. And kind of Churchill-ish, your relentless obsession with being successful and winning as a team. I love it. Steven, with that, I want to thank you for your time today. Appreciate it. I know that uh you're incredibly busy and uh the time you gave us today was incredibly generous. And thanks for being on the podcast.

Stephen Emmerson 32:43

It's been a pleasure, Jason. Thank you.

Jason Taylor 32:45

Awesome. If you love that session and that conversation as much as I did, would love to have you join our People Playbook community in the link below.