Jason Taylor 0:00

Today's guest on the People's Playbook podcast is Kirk Allen. And Kirk is the co-founder of a very successful media agency called Reshift. They're a digital marketing company, and they are able to actually help loads of companies and franchisors just do a better job at what they're supposed to be doing really well. I am pumped about this conversation because anybody who comes into contact with Kirk, I've never heard a bad thing said about him, right? Or, you know, I wish he improved on this or I wish he did this. All they talk about is how he leaves more on the table than he takes. All they talk about is how hospitable he is, how uh he actually makes a difference in their businesses and how he's helped them grow. So, Kirk, welcome to the show today. Well, thank you. You're making my head big. Yeah, no, you know what, your reputation is uh, you know, it's it's nice when you hear that stuff, Kirk, because you know, it goes noticed. And uh yeah, your team and and people around you and people that have dealt with you absolutely say what I just said there. They just say, hey, you know what, this is you know, I believe it was our mutual contact sherry that said, you know, anytime I've needed Kirk, he jumps in with both feet and he just, yeah, he's just there for us, right? And uh yeah, it's nice to it's nice to hear that. Well, it's nice to hear. Thank you for saying that and nice to have that feedback. Absolutely. So let's talk about reputation. So you've spent decades leading inside large organizations and and then becoming a founder, right? So which is completely different, right? From large organization to say, hey, you know what, I think I can do this on my own. What's that one leadership mindset that you had to change the most when you made that leap from big company to it's me now?

Kirk Allen 1:44

Well, in terms of leadership, that's a really good question. Personally, I don't think the the actual leadership changes much in my view. When I was in the you know corporate role in newspapers for decades, I would also there and here, and with my my company, uh my business partner, myself, our company, is treat people with respect.

Jason Taylor 2:06

Okay.

Kirk Allen 2:07

And so as a leader in the newspapers, when I had, well, at one point, I guess I had 700 employees, I would treat everyone the same, respect, regardless of title, location, everyone. And now as a leader in my own company with my business partner, I do the same. Um treat people with respect. The one thing I will say in terms of a leader is you know, when we opened this company, we were a team of six. Today we're a team of about 35. And um I used to take the garbage out because no one else is gonna take the garbage open. Well, I guess that's what I have to do, right? Yeah. When I was in the newspaper business, we had people that did that. Um, but honestly, in terms of leadership, uh Jason, it really is the same mindset for me. Now you've got more skin in the game, yeah. But when I had a corporate job, I always felt that you know, make decisions as if it's your own company. Yep. Because if you make a mistake, it'll cost the company money, whether it's your company or someone else's. And so that's the way my mindset really, in terms of leadership, has not changed, except for sometimes you have to roll up your sleeve a little bit more when you own your own company, as opposed to a large corporation.

Jason Taylor 3:27

Yeah, absolutely. What was the feeling in your gut when you said I'm going on my own? Were you excited? Were you scared, all of the above? Actually, what made you take the leap too, Kirk? So it's one thing to say, hey, this is a good idea. The other is there's another, you know, part of that where you say, okay, bye, I'm gonna go do that now, right?

Kirk Allen 3:45

So over my career, multiple times, customers of mine, going back to my days in Montreal, the Gazette, would say, Kirk, you should open your own agency. Okay. You know, you give me all this advice and you're selling me newspaper advertising. So that always stayed in the back of my mind. I heard it a couple of times, but back then, it was a big leap. Sure. So fast forward to moving from Montreal to Toronto, and I worked for Post Media before that, Ken West, the newspaper uh business. I was SVP of uh marketing sales for Post Media. And Post Media owned all the big newspapers across the country. So National Post, Montreal Gazette, Ottawa Citizen, Calgary Herald, Evening Journal, Vancouver Sun Province, all the big dailies. And in 2010, we saw newspaper readership and advertising revenue starting to decline.

Jason Taylor 4:42

Yeah, big time probably of that of that era.

Kirk Allen 4:45

Yeah. So the um in the summer of 2011, I told the leadership team that we're not gonna grow revenue the following year. That went over like a uh lead balloon, right? It was not well received. And well, why is that? I said, well, I've been saying for a year now that the revenue is being shifted out of traditional media into digital and also into websites. So that's where retailers are putting their money. They're spending money on social media, Google, and making a better website. Sure. So at the time, I actually proposed, well, not myself, is my current business partner, myself, and a few other people, senior people within the um postmedia company, to create a digital marketing arm of the newspaper. Yeah. Where we would do social media and search and build websites. And the reason we proposed that, it was happening in the US. There's a number of US uh newspapers doing that very successfully. And the reason for that was, you know, 10% of the revenue was going from newspapers to these other companies that we lost control of. So we proposed building this arm of the newspapers that would be a digital marketing department that would do all that stuff. And the reason we did that was because we had the relationships back then in 2000, 2010, newspapers were the king. They were the king. They had all the relationships with advertisers across the country. But they're saying, I'm taking 10% of my budget or 20% going over here. Thank you very much. I have to do it. That's where the that's where the people are where the eyeballs are. Now so we had this big business plan. It was really well put together. One of the owners at the time, and I won't mention the name, said there's no future in social media, it's a fad. Oh my lord.

Jason Taylor 6:40

Oh my lord.

Kirk Allen 6:41

2010.

Jason Taylor 6:42

Yeah. Wow.

Kirk Allen 6:43

Wow. So that summer, uh 2000 left or uh 2011 when I told the board we're not going to grow revenue. Um, I was given a uh nice um golden parachute to leave the company after 30 years.

Jason Taylor 6:57

Yeah.

Kirk Allen 6:58

And we took the exact same business plan, went to market to find to open an uh agency, and found five private investors to invest in the company. Wow. And that's how we got it was the exact same business plan, but on our own, that we had proposed to the newspaper, um, newspaper back then. And we went to market and we had we maybe made 10 presentations and five people put money on the table. Yeah, I'm in if it's you, you, Steve, I'm in. So we actually it was they were betting on on us, and at the time, sure, there weren't many digital marketing agencies anywhere. Yeah. You know, um, some the bigger agencies were dabbling in it, but they didn't really, because they were still doing traditional. They were doing the newspapers and the radio and the billboards and TV, but they weren't doing digital marketing. So that's how it started. We um took the exact same business plan and said, you know what? Let's take a risk here and open our own business. My business partner, Steve Burez, he's a brilliant guy. He's a great partner. And um, the two of us combined make a really good uh partnership. And um, that's how we were able to attract investors and open the business.

Jason Taylor 8:12

I love that. And you know what I think also was probably part of your success was it wasn't like so. When you're with a when you were with the traditional newspaper, they were saying, okay, this would be a division, we'll work this as well, where you just said, Hey, I'm on my own now. This is all I'm gonna do. This is all I'm gonna do. And I'm actually, you're almost forced to, hey, I'm jumping on the both feet, you know, the water's cold, but it'll warm up. And there's really no plan B. Yeah, right. There's really no plan B. It's like, hey, we have to make this work. And thankfully, you saw the trend and you said, I know you're not gonna share that person's name, but yeah, I bet you that person's looking back thinking, how did I, how did I think social media was a fad, right? As opposed to being what it is today.

Kirk Allen 8:59

Yeah, and so then I went from um, I guess in the newspapers, it was managing decline. Hate to say it, but that's what it was. It's managing decline of revenue. And my mentor, who I was also for the newspaper business, he left as well. He said, Kirk, get into a growth industry. Yeah. And that's what we did, because that's where I saw the revenue. I knew where it was going. We just had to, you know, build a team and go and get it. So that's how it all started.

Jason Taylor 9:25

And um what a story. What a story. So let's let's go down that road for a second. So you built Reshift by partnering closely with agencies, actually, instead of just competing with them, right? So you basically said, let me look at this a little differently. What did that teach you about building, you know, on culture and collaboration?

Kirk Allen 9:45

So that was the original business plan. And we built it like that because agencies, well, didn't have a division that did social media and search.

Jason Taylor 9:53

Yeah.

Kirk Allen 9:53

So we figured, hey, we could offer the service because they probably need it and they didn't want to hire people. Yeah. So that was the original business plan. And um, I went and met with probably 15 to 20 different agencies. And I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, we'd we'd work with you for sure. Yeah. The reality is was two or three days. So we figured it's like, oh, okay, it's not working as well as we thought. So we actually went direct to um the companies because we figured we can't depend on them to carry the ball for us. Yeah. So we just bypassed a lot of agencies and went direct to the brand and said, hey, need help with social media, you need to Google ads, you need a new website, we can do that for you. Yeah. So in fact, the um sales tracker I have has, you know, uh business from agencies and business direct. And it probably is, you know, we work with some agency for sure, but it's a smaller percentage than the direct business.

Jason Taylor 10:52

Yeah, your direct business probably and and not just that, when you're doing a direct, you look and feel more like the expert as opposed to just being a person that's helping out, right? They they say, hey, they're we're they're the expert, and they're that's all they're doing for me is this, you know, one project, right? Jason, you're 100% right.

Kirk Allen 11:08

Like you, if someone's you know, white labeling you behind the scenes, which a lot of agencies did, then yeah, you're not getting the credit, they're getting the credit. You're making them look like experts, meanwhile, behind the scenes, you have a whole team, and we have the best team there is of experts in the field.

Jason Taylor 11:25

Let's talk about your experts right now. So, and just how you know you built this team, and you know, you've gone from managing and leading big, big groups of people to you know, smaller now based on it you being your own business and whatnot. But when you're hiring somebody, what would you look for? Like what's that character trait that you try to find that you value most than just you know showing up on the resume?

Kirk Allen 11:52

Speaking of resumes, nowadays they can be generated by AI. Yeah, and they all look perfect on paper. They do. Oh, this is a perfect one. You know, put that one on the top of the pile, but now they've got a lot on top of the pile. Yeah, yeah. What I look for is passion, drive and willingness to learn. Yeah. So if they have the right personality, they can learn stuff. And if they can, you know, if they have that drive and they've got that passion, that's where I like to hire. They have to have some skill too, sure, but that can be taught often. But drive, passion, and willingness to learn isn't something that that comes natural. It's not something you you learn. It's the thing in the personality or not. So that's that's how we we like to hire.

Jason Taylor 12:39

Yeah, I I agree with you. And I I often say you can't teach passion, right? You either have it or you don't. And you'll know who I'm talking about. Some of our viewers may uh and listeners may not, but I had a meeting one time and uh Michael Pinball Clements came to that meeting.

Kirk Allen 12:55

He's great.

Jason Taylor 12:56

He's amazing. Yeah, and I was uh back then I was working for um a big brewer at the time, and he was uh speaking to my sales team, and he said, uh, when we were talking, he uh I said, you know, I wish I could just have a a rod or some kind of measuring stick that I could put in their belly and just see, you know, how much passion they have, and I know if I should hire them or not. And you know what he said to me? He said, he said, that's your fault. And I I looked at him, I was confused. I was just like, What are you talking about? It's my fault, right? And he said, he said, Well, you're the coach, right? And I said, Okay, so what do you mean by that? And I'll these words stuck with me. I was in my 20s and now I'm in my 50s, and he they stuck with me. He said, Your job is to create belief, belief fuels passion, and passion rarely fails. And and did it ever stick with me, Kirk, when he said that. Because I was just like, Yeah, he's right. And I love the fact about that too. I'm I'm a big believer in like if they have the passion and the drive, I'll give them so much more time if they have that, as opposed to if I'm I'd rather have to pull somebody back than push somebody forward.

Kirk Allen 14:05

Yeah, I love it. And he's 100% talk about a guy with passion. Pinball is like the king, right? Yeah, he he's he's all unreal. He's absolutely and when you chat with them, Jason, and he you'll mention your name right in, yeah. Right in. And he you're now having a one-on-one with pinball, and he does that like it's so it's an amazing skill.

Jason Taylor 14:26

And everybody who comes in contact with him just he's the same with everybody. He gives the human be, he's such a good human being. It's it's unreal what a good person he is, right? Yeah, for sure. So you've led some teams through some major chefs in media, obviously, but specifically that sector. Like that sector has seen so much change over the years, it's it's it's crazy, right? And it quite frankly, it's almost media and and whatnot, it's almost like tech. Like I you buy the new iPhone and an hour later it's you know, it's obsolete, right? So media, uh in my opinion, moves that fast as well, right? So you've led some teams through some major shifts in in that sector. How do you keep people energized and wanting to be there when the industry keeps changing around them?

Kirk Allen 15:12

Well, by allowing them to experiment with the new technology, like making sure they're they're involved, offering and building into strategies, you know, the new platform or the you know, AI is a big piece right now for websites and for retailers and you know, franchise system being found through AI. You want to be on that list, right? That AI is going to serve up to you. And um, you know, also the new platforms like, you know, are we using TikTok? You know, are we using Reddit? You know, are we using all the Snapchat? Like, what is it that's hot? And we always have um believed and positioned ourselves as being leaders in the digital space and willing to help them experiment with new platforms where eyeballs are. You know, meta used to be king. Meta's still king, but there are other options out there now. And how do you use Meta? You know, and uh modify the way to use Meta. So we're always you know making sure, enabling and encouraging our team to use the latest technology. And AI is a great one. Use it, be faster, better, more creative.

Jason Taylor 16:17

Yeah.

Kirk Allen 16:18

And so every every team member is using it to a certain degree, could be using it more, um, but certainly allow them to run with it, experiment with it. And sometimes you fail, um, other times you you see the advantages of it, and our customers also you know benefit from the ideas we generate and to drive business for them. So we're big believers in let's experiment, let's try it. What's new? Have we tried it? Let's try it. So that's awesome.

Jason Taylor 16:47

Yeah, that's awesome. So let's go down that AI path for a second. So it as it continues to, you know, reshape, you know, I could say marketing, but reshape life, let's be honest, right? So, you know, AI is is I often say I I like to joke once a day, I I look at somebody and I'll say, Hey, have you heard about this AI stuff? Like this, right? And it just because you you can't get away from it, right? It's just crazy how where it is, right? So as it continues to reshape marketing, what leadership skill do you believe will actually become even more valuable over the next five years? Use it.

Kirk Allen 17:21

Uh, use it, uh, test it. Um, but you have to, in our view, it's all there always has to be human oversight. So you can have AI create all sorts of content for you, but the search engines now can identify if it was AI generated. Okay. Now there's certain things the way it's written and the uh punctuation and that sort of thing. So make sure you're gonna put some human eyes to it and review it. Don't just take what's been generated by AI and put it into market. You definitely have to have a human uh overview. Like we've done uh, you know, even outside of content, create images using AI. But you gotta look pretty closely because there's one where we did with a um, I think it was a dog, and the dog had five legs instead of four. Um so so you go, mmm, but that's not good. Uh so you really have to pay attention. So, yes, um, absolutely is something we use. We even built in a new software. We've got a new uh platform called Frantify, where AI built in there where uh it enables the um franchisee or the franchise or to make different versions of content and ads using AI. So we we're built it into our our systems, uh, but our team do and are encouraged to run with it. And when they use it, they see the benefits. Like, oh yeah, that that was pretty good. But it's it's taking that leap to try it and not be afraid to try it and allow them to experiment with it.

Jason Taylor 18:45

Yeah. I agree with you so so much there. It is so important to actually embrace this and just understand the guardrails. To your point, a dog with five legs, yeah, you you gotta you gotta make sure you look at that stuff. But people, you know, one I heard one person describe it as people and I'm gonna paraphrase this, but he basically said, you know, AI won't replace people, but people that don't use AI, but people that use AI will replace those people, right? Yeah, good point. Right, good point. And sure, and I know that's I know AI is gonna replace some people. Like, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not my head's not in the sand. But that being said, you know, embrace it, use it, and just think, hey, one guy actually said to me, AI is the biggest thing that happened to the human race since fire. And when he said that, Kirk, I was interested. I was it, I was just like, what do you mean by that? And he said, Well, when we had when we first got fired as a human race, he said we could all of a sudden we could heat, we could eat, we could cook something, we had light, right? And he said, AI is going to be, I promise you, that big on kind of what it what it brings to society and what it's all about, right? So he or she was not is not wrong. That's uh that's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. And and you must just see something different every day based on the industry that you're in. Like you must just see things every day where you're like, oh my lord, I can't believe this, right?

Kirk Allen 20:10

Well, it's interesting you say that because in our business, we deal primarily like 95% of our customers are franchise systems. Sure. And franchise systems are actually built to win at AI because of their locations. So nowadays, as people look for a service near me, and you've got if you're a franchise system, you have all these locations across the country, and if it's structured correctly at the website, and your, of course, your social media and your you know um all the different platforms you are, you can win and you know, beat out those, you know, the smaller, maybe retailers that don't have the same kind of power. So franchise systems are actually built to win at AI, and that's something we do every day because of their footprint. One brand with either dozens or hundreds or thousands of locations across the country, and that enables them to actually have a leg up on most brands because they have multiple locations, which actually plays well in AI when someone's looking for, you know, I'm looking for pizza near me that has um, you know, the best Hawaiian pizza in Durham. And guess what? If your website and your social media, your Google My business are all properly structured, that will actually play to your benefit to be pop up as a result in AI. So we're doing a lot of that in our day-to-day, every day right now is optimizing websites for to win an AI for franchise uh systems.

Jason Taylor 21:43

Wow. Kirk, I'm gonna ask you to think a bit here on this one. So if you look back on your career, which has been very successful and it's it's, you know, I know you're not in your 20s anymore, so it's been a longer career than others, right? Yeah. If you're looking back on that career, what's one leadership mistake that completely Change how you build teams today.

Kirk Allen 22:02

Oh, yeah. You know what? That's a really good question. When I think back, there was a time at the Montreal Gazette where I said something to some a sales rep that was not properly worded. And maybe, you know, I treat people with respect that, like I said earlier, but it made you really be careful what you say to people because I think it can be a great motivator when you, you know, praise someone, but it also be worked the opposite way if they take it the wrong way. Sure. So treating people with respect and that one incident, I still remember it. I thought, yeah, I just I didn't position that properly. And it kind of backfired on me and it went away. And then, you know, um, I guess we fixed that all up with that individual. But it just I think it left a bit of a scar on me and that person as well. But once it comes back to respect, treat people with respect, regardless if it's a big company, you're a manager, or it's your own company, always respect. Um, and whether in personal life too. You know, whether whether it's you're golfing with someone or you're playing hockey with someone or whatever it is, you're out shopping. And it happens where, you know, sometimes customers will talk down to some of our staff members and they without respect. And you gotta respect everyone. Um, so that that I say that one incident back at the Muttogazette 30 years ago, yeah, yeah, still is in my mind today.

Jason Taylor 23:26

Yeah. So yeah, we always remember that. And and I think every leader has had one of those. I have, everybody has. If you say you haven't had one of those, I'm just like, come on. Everybody's done something where they think they could have done something differently. If you had to remember the best leader that you've ever worked with or actually, let's let's even narrow it. Somebody that you reported into. Do you remember the best leader you ever reported into? Hmm, that's a really good question. It's probably a couple. Do you want to mention names? You can if you feel comfortable, sure. Yeah.

Kirk Allen 23:54

Yeah. I probably won't mention the the name because um but it was someone that allowed um his I guess team to take charge. And there's a lot of trust. So once you earn someone's trust, let them go. You know, let them run with it. And if you screw up, yeah, you have to take uh be accountable for that. But he was a gentleman in the newspaper business and um he was really supportive of myself and what I did and gave me a lot of leeway, yeah, which kind of allowed me to operate, I found better um as a leader, and I wasn't always looking over my shoulder because I knew I was supported by by him, whatever decisions I made. So I think you know that individual was really, and I'll never forget, and whatever he said, I do, because I respected him too. So it went both ways. You see, sometimes people, uh, I don't think that's the right decision. Um, but he would listen. If if you push back to say, you know what, I'm not so sure that's the right way to go, he would listen. Um being a being a good listener was probably the biggest reason why I respected him as a leader, because he would listen. And um, it wasn't always his way or the highway. So he would listen and sometimes change his mind to whatever direct yeah. So that I like that too. You know, be a good listener and don't try to push things down someone's uh throat if it's not the right way.

Jason Taylor 25:28

Yeah. You know what you said there too, you talked about trust. I I'm a I'm such an advocate that once trust is in that relationship, oh my lord, like the things that you can do with your team with that trust is crazy, right? And and and I look at every relationship as everybody has a trust bank account, right? So you know, if if you and I are doing work together or friends or whatever, we still have that trust bank account. Hopefully, I make more deposits of trust that when I do screw up, which I will probably, we all do, I still have a balance in that bank account of trust, right? Yeah, you might give me trouble and say, Jay, you know what, I wasn't expecting this or whatnot, but at the end of the day, I still have that trust. It's when you don't have that trust in that bank account and you're in a deficit that the relationship and the leadership falls.

Kirk Allen 26:15

So I totally agree. And this leader said to me one time, and it was kind of towards the end when he was leaving, he said, Kirk, at the end of the day, all you have is your reputation. And that really stuck with me. Like he's right. You know, you could have had this big job and big salary and big responsibilities, but when you leave, all you have is your reputation. Yeah. Yeah. And um, so that's always stuck with me. And I thought that was a really good message from him to really be mindful of that. So, you know, uh, once you leave a company, if you got you know a good reputation, that will help you going forward uh in life and in future business opportunities for sure.

Jason Taylor 27:02

Yeah, 100%. And it's amazing what that how far that'll carry you. And everybody thinks that the industry they work in is big, but when you leave an industry or you leave a company, you realize how small that industry actually is. Because when you talk to somebody, I could talk to you right now about 10 or 15 people in the in the newspaper business, and you would know them. You'd be like, oh, yeah, I know him, oh, she was great, and whatnot. It's because the industry's smaller than we actually think, right? For sure. For sure. So when you actually worry about your reputation in a good way, and actually you shouldn't worry about it, just do the right thing when you're supposed to, and you don't badmouth people and and whatnot. You just be a good person. It's amazing how people kind of rally around you and say, you know what, I actually want to help this person out. The other thing it does is when you go and start your own business, people say, Hey, Kirk was awesome. I love that guy. You know what? Yeah, I think he's gonna do amazing. And you know what? I would actually recommend him to other people, you know, that I know just because he's gonna go down that road. People want to be part of of lives and with people that they trust, they know, and they respect.

Kirk Allen 28:08

Yeah, yeah, that trust factor you mentioned, you know, Jay, is is critical. And when you go to ask a favor of someone, you got that bank, you it'll it'll help for sure in that regard.

Jason Taylor 28:20

Yeah, absolutely. One day you say, you know what, I'm you know, I'm done. I'm either gonna sell or I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, I'm leaving, whatever. When you leave and you're looking back and you're looking back at the team and the people that you've led, and you're in your you know, bed at night and you're sleeping and you're thinking about them. What's the one thing that you hope they took from you as a leader that led them through your organization? Good questions, uh, Jason.

Kirk Allen 28:48

Um, I would say that they learn from you and they grew from working with you. They learn and grew as a person, whether it's personal or in business. I think that would be on a you know, look back. Yeah, I learned a lot from him. I grew as a result of that as a person, both personally and professionally.

Jason Taylor 29:12

Yeah. I love that answer, by the way. I I also love seeing you and I have had chats about this. I love seeing people do well. It that actually baffles my mind sometimes when you hear about somebody getting promoted or something, and somebody says, well, it shouldn't have been them, or and they get they go down this negative road. I actually think, well, weren't you, you know, if especially if they led them one time, I said, Well, hopefully you helped them get to that place, right? I'll never forget one of my managers said this to me when I was working for the big brewer. He said this to me, and it man, it ever stick with me, and it came true. We were we were talking one day, and he said this, Kirk, and it stuck with me. He said, I hope one day you'll be signing my expenses. And I gotta tell you, five years later, I was signing his expenses. And but it was just uh I had a trajectory at the time going it going into this thing and whatnot, and it happened. And that happened to me, but it's also happened to me, where somebody that's reported into me, all of a sudden I'm going with my expenses saying, Hey, can you sign off on this? Because because hopefully I did something well in their career, and you know what I mean? They wanted to they became bigger and better than me, right?

Kirk Allen 30:20

The way you manage up and down has to be the same. And there's so many people who only manage up, yeah, and they they forget about the people below them. And when you burn that bridge, yeah, it'll burn you in your career. So very well. Yeah, 100%. Um I'm totally with you.

Jason Taylor 30:38

And that's that's a good one, a good analogy. I love that what you just said there. I'm gonna steal that. The way you say that again, the way you manage up and down has to be the same.

Kirk Allen 30:46

Yeah, yeah. I love that because though so many people only manage up well, they don't manage down. You have to treat people regardless of position with respect. Yeah. And um, because those people below you, yeah, maybe to your point, be your boss one day and signing your expenses. And I I love what you said. So yeah, and that that's where that whole trust factor comes in. They they trust you, they've worked with you, they understand you. But too often, Jay, people do not manage well down. And um, I've seen that in my career, and you shake your head and you you, you know, yeah, it's yeah, it's it's they're I don't think they can be successful long term by operating that way.

Jason Taylor 31:28

Yeah, and I often say leaders are always on stage, and no matter if you know it or not, somebody is always watching how a leader reacts, what their body language is, are they rolling their eyes, are they engaged in what the the person's saying? And it's very important that when you have the privilege of leading somebody, and it and I the privilege of leading somebody, you have to I like the way you say that. Yeah, yeah, you have to realize that they spend a lot of time with you and uh have a lot of contact with you. And because of that, it's really important that you're you're not a jerk. Like it really is, right? And the and the reason I say that is because you spend more time with these people than their husband, their wives, their sisters, their brothers, their friends, their family. You spend a lot of time at work. Yeah, so create that better work, better world for them where they actually like going to work. They actually enjoy your company and your leadership style, and you know, leave your ego at the door. You could still be a leader without, you know, being it's it's my way or the highway and whatnot. People know you're a leader. People know you're making the ultimate call. That doesn't give you permission to be a jerk, right? Totally 100% agree there, Jason. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Before I let you go, because um you've been more than generous with your time. I do want to ask you one question because you've had an outstanding career, you've built an outstanding company with an outstanding reputation that people you've become a magnet that people want to come to. And you and your partner have earned that, right? That doesn't just come because you know you're a nice guy. You've earned doing great work for great people for great companies and and showing results. If I had to say, hey, Kirk, today you can go back to a young Kirk who's in his low 20s, you know, coming out of school and starting his career, what's one piece of leadership advice that you'd give that young Kirk and say, Hey, listen, Kirk, and you give it to him? What would what would that one piece of advice be?

Kirk Allen 33:30

Follow your dreams. I probably should have opened my own business earlier.

Jason Taylor 33:34

Yeah.

Kirk Allen 33:35

And um I think that would be one piece of advice. If you have if you have a uh an idea and you put the right planning into it, and it doesn't come easy. You have to you have to work hard. Like 100%. But I always treated my corporate job like that too. I took it to heart. I was so passionate about my corporate job, and in the business I am today, I'm passionate as well, obviously, because my you know, I part owner of a business, but I always took whatever you do, you know, follow your heart um and your dreams because they can come true. And we when we opened Reshift Media, there's a lot of doubters. Yeah. There's people, I don't never work. They can't open their own agency. And here we are, like 14 years later, with you know 200 customers in 20 countries around the world, and but there were people that doubted you. And that there was people like, yeah, Kirk, you can do it. Let's do it, man. Go for it. And so those are the type of people you want in your arena with you, in your circle of friends, is those motivating, you know, positive thinkers. And if you follow your dreams, you can win at anything you do, whether that's in life or business, but follow your dreams because you can, those dreams can come true.

Jason Taylor 34:53

I agree with you, man. That is such an inspirational thing you just said there. I feel that sometimes we get in our own way, and we we sometimes find the reasons why we can't do something or why we shouldn't do something. And that's why literally, when I'm talking to young people and and whatnot, I'm just saying, yeah, you can do it. You can do that. Who says you can? And if somebody says they can't, who are they to say they can't? You can't. Yeah, right, right. You're talking to somebody that you know is it has done the same thing their entire life and hasn't tried something differently. So try something different. And you know what? Specifically, when you're you're you're young, you can adjust. You can adjust, you can we talked about it with your company. You were partnering with agencies, and then you started going direct, right? Sure, you still partner with some agencies, but you you shifted, you pivoted. You said that okay, this isn't working as as well as it needs to work. I'm gonna pivot here and I'm gonna I'm gonna do a bit over here now, right?

Kirk Allen 35:47

Yeah, yeah, exactly what we did.

Jason Taylor 35:49

I love it. Kirk, with that, I have to thank you for your time. Been incredibly generous with it. I appreciate you. I appreciate the focus and the energy you give to leadership. Like I said, your reputation exceeds itself. And uh thanks for doing that, and I appreciate you being a guest today.

Kirk Allen 36:05

Well, thanks for having me, uh Jason. Loved it. Great questions, and uh, I enjoyed the uh podcast. Awesome. Thanks, Kirk.